Tuesday 29th March 2011 Second Reading The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 presented by Vice President George Kunda -Minister of Justice
Notice: Undefined index: catFilterList in /home/zambi/public_html/wp-content/plugins/wp-likes/api.php on line 243
Tuesday, 29th March, 2011
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF ZAMBIA
FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
ORDER PAPER – TUESDAY, 29TH MARCH, 2011
AT 1430 HOURS
QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER
399 Mr Kambwili (Roan) – to ask the Minister of Communications and Transport:
(a) when the Zambia-Tanzania Road Services Company was closed;
(b) how many people were employed by the company at the time of its closure; and
(c) whether the employees were paid their terminal benefits and, if not, when they will be paid.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
1 The Constitution of Zambia Bill (N.A.B. 59/2010)
Second Reading
2 The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill (N.A.B. 60/2010)
Second Reading
Debates- Tuesday, 29th March, 2011
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29th March, 2011
The House met at 1430 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
__________
QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER
ZAMBIA-TANZANIA ROAD SERVICES COMPANY CLOSURE
399. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:
(a) when the Zambia-Tanzania Road Services Company was closed;
(b) how many people were employed by the company at the time of its closure; and
(c) Whether the employees were paid their terminal benefits and, if not, when they would be paid.
The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the Zambia-Tanzania Road Services Company was closed on 8th August, 1985 when it went into liquidation. At the time of the closure, the company had 398 employees in Zambia.
The ex-employees of this company were paid their terminal benefits in accordance with the Companies Act Cap. 686 of the Laws of Zambia relating to liquidated companies. This was done following discussions between the joint liquidators, which were Zambia Industrial and Mining Corporation (ZIMCO) and the Ministries of Communications and Transport in Zambia and Tanzania.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I have had representation from 200 employees of this company claiming that they were not paid their terminal benefits by the receiver. Can the hon. Minister reconcile this? What is his source of information because the people are still claiming that they have not been paid?
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the information we have given is authentic. If there are any doubts, we would be very glad to know the list of names of those who are claiming that benefits have not been paid to them.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, may I find out how much money was raised from the sale of assets since this company was liquidated.
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we shall be very glad to provide an answer to such a question if the hon. Member so desires, but that is a totally new question.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
___________{mospagebreak}
BILLS
SECOND READING
THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2010
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before I call upon His Honour the Vice-President and Learned hon. Minister of Justice, I wish to guide the House as follows:
The House should note that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010 precedes the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The Bill is a technical necessity as it generally deals with savings and transitional provisions of existing laws, offices and institutions, among other things, that are affected by the extensive amendments to the Constitution of Zambia Act, 1991, as a result of the amendment Bill. The Bill also provides for the commencement date, printing and publication of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, 2010.
Further, hon. Members should note that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 is the one which deals with the substantial provisions of the Constitution which is the Schedule to the current Act.
Hon. Members, as this is a constitutional Bill, Article 79 of the existing Republican Constitution and Standing Order No. 100 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005 Edition, provide that a Bill to amend the Constitution shall not be passed unless it is supported, on Second or Third Readings, by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all the hon. Members of the Assembly. However, any amendment at Committee Stage requires only a simple majority to stand as part of the Bill.
Thank you.
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Mr Speaker, the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010 seeks to amend the Constitution of Zambia Act, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia, by providing for the printing and publication of the amended Constitution; the savings and transitional provisions of existing State organs and institutions, administrations, offices, institutions and laws; the savings of succession to assets, rights, liabilities, obligations and legal proceedings; and related matters.
Sir, I wish, from the outset, to draw the attention of this august House to the inextricable link between the Constitution of Zambia Act and the Constitution of Zambia, the latter being a Schedule to the former. It is on occasion of this very link that I will make constant reference to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 which seeks to amend the Constitution of Zambia.
Sir, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 contains proposals that, among others, will affect existing laws, rights, duties and obligations of the Government, offices, pensions, gratuities and other benefits, the Legislature and Judiciary.
With respect to legislation, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, once enacted, will require the repeal of certain legislation or the re-enactment, with or without modification, of existing laws and the promulgation of new legislation. This may negatively affect accrued rights, existing duties and obligations of the Government, offices and office holders, pensions, gratuities and other benefits, the Legislation and Judiciary.
Mr Speaker, for example, with respect to Members of the National Assembly who form part of the Legislature, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, proposes that a person shall be eligible to be elected as a Member of the National Assembly if that person, among others, has obtained, as a minimum qualification, a Grade 12 certificate of education or its equivalent. This qualification is novel and does not exist in the current Constitution of Zambia.
Consequently, by implication, any serving Member of Parliament who does not hold a Grade 12 certificate of education or its equivalent would not, once the Constitution is enacted, qualify to continue as a Member of Parliament. The application of the clause in such manner would result in vacancies which, in turn, would, undoubtedly, cause untold disruption to the functioning of the Legislature. This is just an illustration, Sir.
Therefore, it is imperative to save matters such as those to which I have already made reference so as to preserve, beyond doubt, their functioning or existence. This is the tenor of the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010.
The Bill seeks to preserve laws which would otherwise be repealed or cease to have effect, once the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010 comes into effect. In particular, the Bill proposes the preservation of all legislation in existence before the coming into effect of the Constitution as amended provided the legislation is consistent with the Constitution as amended.
Mr Speaker, the Bill also proposes to save existing offices such as the Office of the President, Vice-President, Minister and Deputy Ministers and the holders thereof. It also preserves the other two State organs being the Legislature and the Judiciary. The preservation of these offices and their respective holders is cardinal for the continued effective functioning of the Government without causing unnecessary disruption or incurring unnecessary expenses requisite for any change of Government.
Further, the Bill provides for the continuation of the Government’s subsisting rights, duties and obligations, as the passing of a new constitution cannot be a means of abrogating Government’s responsibility for any duties and obligations owed. In similar light, accrued benefits such as pensions and gratuities will be preserved.
Mr Speaker, I also wish to highlight the setting forth, in the Bill, of transitional provisions which, on the enactment of the Bill, will have the effect of deferring the immediate commencement of certain provisions until the enactment of legislation which is necessary to give them effect.
Mr Speaker, as you are aware, the legislative process that culminates in an Act of Parliament is not an easy one. It is an inclusive process which requires that the Government undertakes much consultation with stakeholders whose operations will be affected by the proposed legislation. Such consultation and the legislation resulting therefrom would not be possible without the deferral of the coming into effect of the provisions that require the enactment of legislation for their effective operationalisation. This is, wherein, the importance of transitional provisions lies.
Mr Speaker, further, the deferral of the operation of certain provisions is important so as to allow the legislative process to run its course and to ensure that the resultant legislation stipulates all matters that are cardinal to, pertain to or are connected with, or incidental to, the effective operation of the said provisions.
Mr Speaker, one provision for which transitional provisions are required is Clause 65(1)(b) which provides for an enlarged composition of the National Assembly.
Mr Speaker, with regard to the enlargement of the National Assembly, such deferral is necessitated by the requirement for an Act of Parliament to give effect to the proportional representation segment of the mixed member representation system. However, the promulgation of an effective piece of legislation on this subject is dependent on, among others, extensive consultations with all relevant stakeholders with respect to the manner of operationalising the system. Without the deferral of the coming into effect of the provision, much doubt is cast as to whether these important consultations would be possible.
Mr Speaker, from the foregoing, it is evident that the proposed legislation is cardinal for the purpose of ensuring that there is no disruption of the function of the three arms of Government and governance, in general, arising out of the enactment of the new Constitution.
Mr Speaker, this Bill is not controversial. It is progressive and I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this august House to support it.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr D. Mwila: Question!
Mr Speaker: This is just to remind the august House that there are two Bills before you. For emphasis, one is the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010 and that is Order No. 1. The other, Order No. 2, is the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010. This is also Second Reading. We have to take each at a time. So, right now, under consideration is the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010. We will have to conclude the Second Reading stage of this Bill before we go to the next Order. His Honour the Vice-President debated the way he did to show the connection between the two. My assumption, and I believe I am right, is that there is another speech that he will deliver when dealing with Order of the Day No. 2. As for the rest of the hon. Members, avoid making reference to Order No. 2, but confine yourself to Order No. 1 which, as you may have heard, sounds, to me, like straightforward. So, if you do not have much to say on this, we can proceed to a vote so that we give more time to the meat under point No. 2. However, procedure requires that I call for any further debate. The Chairperson of the Special Select Committee on this matter, hon. Member for Livingstone may debate.
Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, allow me to acquaint this august House with some of the salient issues that your Committee encountered during their deliberations on the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010.
Mr Speaker, your Committee notes that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, provides for the printing and publication of the amended Constitution; the savings and transitional provisions of existing State organs and institutions, administrations, offices, institutions and laws; and savings of succession to assets, rights, liabilities, obligations and legal proceedings.
Mr Speaker, to assist in its deliberations, your Committee invited various witnesses to submit their written views on the Bill. The witnesses also appeared before your Committee to make their oral submissions. Sir, I wish to report to the House that none of the witnesses that appeared before your Committee raised any concerns or issues regarding the Bill as it was generally viewed that it is principally concerned with a transitional rather than substantive provision. In agreeing with the witnesses, your Committee observes that the Bill is consequential to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, and that its enactment is essential because the amended Constitution can only be published and come into operation once this Bill has been enacted.
Your Committee, therefore, observes that the provisions of the Bill are non-controversial and recommends that all hon. Members of the House support the Bill.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the members of your Committee wish to thank you for appointing them to serve on this important Select Committee. Your Committee is also grateful for the services and advice rendered to it by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations.
Your Committee further wishes to pay tribute to all the stakeholders that appeared before it, for their oral and written submissions which assisted it in making informed recommendations to the House.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I wish to thank the hon. Members for their unity and overwhelming support in the House.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as I said earlier, this is a Bill regarding the Constitution and I shall put it to a vote which shall be recorded accordingly. This is part of the formalities in this House.
We require a division and, hon. Members, instead of going into the lobbies as we used to do before, shall vote electronically. However, since I believe that we have two or so hon. Members of the House who are new, I shall go through the procedure for voting electronically.
When you hear the paging sound, remove the card from the unit before you and reinsert it. After the card is identified, the word ‘present’ appears. Press the button corresponding to ‘present’. The next stage offers you three options. It offers you the number two if you want to vote yes. If you want to vote no, press three and if you want to abstain, press four. The amber light flickers on each option. Select your choice and the flickering light on the other options will go off. Then, you have voted. Now, do it.
Let us hear the paging sound first. Remove the card from the unit before you reinsert it. If there are any machines where there are no hon. Members, please, let us ensure that these are removed. The House messengers will go round and remove the cards where there is no hon. Member of Parliament.
I hear some slots do not have any card at all. If there is a card, remove it. Can you see the word ‘present’?
Hon. Members: Yes.{mospagebreak}
Mr Speaker: Press the button corresponding to present. You have four options there. Those who wish to vote yes should press two. Those who wish to vote no should press three and those who wish to abstain should press four. I believe the amber light is flickering or it did so on each option. If you have voted, that flickering light should go off. Well, you have all voted. Let us wait for the results.
I shall announce the results as soon as everyone can see them.
Hon. Member interjected.
Mr Speaker: Well, the total electorate or whatever you may call it, yourselves, is 114.
Question that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, be now read a second time, put and the House voted.
Ayes – (96)
Mr Akakandelwa
Mr R. C. Banda
Mr A. Banda
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.
Mr I. Banda
Mr Beene
Mr Chanda
Ms Changwe
Mr Chella
Major Chibamba
Mr Chikwakwa
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chongo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamududu
Mr Imasiku
Ms Imbwae
Mr Imenda
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Mr Kamondo
Ms Kapwepwe
Mr Kasoko
Mr Kasongo
Mr Katuka
Mr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Mr Liato
Ms Limata
Ms Lundwe
Mr Lungu
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Dr Machungwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Mubika
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga
Mr Mulyata
Mr Mung’omba
Mr Munkombwe
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Dr Musonda
Mr Muteteka
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mwaanga
Mr V. Mwale
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Mr Mwansa
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwiimbu
Mrs Nalumango
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkhata
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Phiri
Professor Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shakafuswa
Lt. Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Sikota, SC.
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simama
Mr Simbao
Mrs Sinyangwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Syakalima
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo
Noes – (17)
Mrs Banda
Mr Chota
Mr Kambwili
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapeya
Ms Kawandami
Mr Lubinda
Mr Malama
Mr Misapa
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr Mushili
Ms Mwamba
Mr Mwenya
Mr D. Mwila
Dr Scott
Mr Simuusa
Abstention – (1)
Mr Lumba
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: I hear there is a technicality. What I want to do is to physically count all of you in here minus the 17 who voted against the Bill and the one who abstained. Let us do a head count right now.
The Clerks-at-the-Table counted.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! There was an omission. The bells did not ring.
Hon. Opposition Members: No!
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! Let us wait. Later on, I will want to know where those who are coming in have been because you knew that this is a crucial Bill. Why are you late?
Hon. Opposition Member: Daka!
Mr Speaker: When you have a situation like this, there is even no need to call for the bells because certain steps are automatic.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! The number of hon. Members who are here present and who voted is 118 and not 114. The total membership of the National Assembly is …
Hon. Member interjected.
Mr Speaker: No, there is a vacancy, I believe. How many vacancies are there?
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: I hear that there are two vacancies. There should be 156 of you here. Where are the rest? Where are they on this particular day?
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Well, the good thing is that I did not finally announce the results. I was simply stating what was happening here. As you know, this is really the door to the main Constitution which we are going to debate. Now, to avoid any doubts, we now have to physically divide into groups.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Mr Speaker: Oh, yes.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! We now have to physically divide into groups.
Hon. Opposition Members: No!
Mr Speaker: Order! Do we have the division charts here?
I will sit down while we deal with the mechanics in the old-fashioned way.
Now, while we are waiting for things to be put in place, let me explain to you the consequences …
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: … of what happens if you do not open this door to Order No. 2. It means you are stuck with the current Constitution …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: … which I believe most of you do not seem to favour.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! There is a better explanation. I am sorry to say the machine is malfunctioning.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Mr Speaker: Unfortunately, the machine is malfunctioning. That is the verdict of the electronic people over there.
Hon. Opposition Members: No.
Mr Speaker: The machine is malfunctioning. However, the machine cannot stop this House from proceeding with its business. Now, with that technical explanation in mind, it is clear that we now truly have to divide physically into groups.
Hon. Opposition Members: No.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order! We are now going to do it in the old-fashioned way. The bells must ring now.
Interruptions
PF Members of Parliament walked out of the Chamber.{mospagebreak}
Question that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, be now read a second time, put and the House voted.
Ayes (91)
Mr Akakandelwa
Mr A. Banda
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.
Mr W. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr Chanda
Ms Changwe
Mr Chella
Mr Chikwakwa
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chongo
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Imasiku
Ms Imbwae
Mr Imenda
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Kalila
Mr Kamondo
Ms C. M. Kapwepwe
Mr Kasongo
Mr Katuka
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda, SC.
Mr Liato
Mr Lumba
Mr Lungu
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Dr Machungwa
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulyata
Mr Mung’omba
Mr Munkombwe
Dr Musonda
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mwaanga
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Mr Mwansa
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Ms Mwape
Mr Mwapela
Mr B. Y. Mwila
Mrs Nalumango
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkhata
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Phiri
Prof. Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shawa
Lt. Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Sikota, SC.
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simama
Mr Simbao
Mrs Sinyangwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo
Ms Tembo
Noes (0)
Abstentions (19)
Mr Beene
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kasoko
Mrs Limata
Mr Mooya
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Syakalima
Question accordingly negative.
Mr Speaker: Since the minimum two-thirds majority is 106, the Bill has failed. It is negatived and I understand that this means that the door is shut to the consideration of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, Second Reading stage.
As I hinted, the implication is that the Republic of Zambia still has a Constitution, the current one of 1991 as amended, substantially, in 1996. I can hear a pin drop in the Chamber. The House still has business to transact tomorrow and we will assemble here, as usual, at 1430 hours.
__________
MOTION
ADJOURNMENT
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.
Question put and agreed to.
____________
The House adjourned at 1622 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 30th March, 2011.
Wednesday, 30th March, 2011
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF ZAMBIA
FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
ORDER PAPER – WEDNESDAY, 30TH MARCH, 2011
AT 1430 HOURS
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
400 Mr D Mwila (Chipili) – to ask the Minister of Finance and National Planning:
(a) how much money the Government of Zambia received from the Japanese Government through the Japan International Co-operation Agency in 2009 and 2010 for the following projects in Luapula Province:
(i) roads;
(ii) boreholes; and
(iii) schools;
(b) whether the money was used for the intended purpose; and
(c) what action the Zambian Government took against officials who failed to apply the funds in accordance with the intended purpose.
401 Dr Chishya (Pambashe) – to ask the Vice President and Minister of Justice:
(a) whether any public funds meant for cholera and other health programmes in the City of Lusaka were deposited in personal accounts between 1991 and 1993;
(b) if so, in which banks were the funds at (a) deposited;
(c) how long were the funds kept in those personal accounts;
(d) how much interest did the public funds accrue in the personal accounts; and
(e) whether the funds were recovered with interest.
402 Mr Kambwili (Roan) – to ask the Vice President and Minister of Justice:
(a) how much money was spent on allowances and transport for delegates to the National Constitutional Conference (NCC);
(b) how many vehicles were purchased for use by the NCC and what the total cost was; and
(c) how the NCC will dispose of the vehicles.
PRESENTATION OF GOVERNMENT BILLS
The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry
The Companies (Amendment) – Bill to amend the Companies Act.
(N.A.B. 16/2011)
The Minister of Finance and National Planning
The Supplementary Appropriation (2009) – Bill to confirm the supplementary expenditure of moneys aggregating one trillion, one hundred and fourteen billion, nine hundred and twenty-two million, eight hundred and fifty-nine thousand, five hundred and six kwacha required for the services of the Republic during the financial year ended on 31st December, 2009.
(N.A.B. 17/2011)
ORDER OF THE DAY
1 The Fisheries Bill (N.A.B. 12/2011)
Third Reading
Debates- Wednesday, 30th March, 2011
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 30th March, 2011
The House met at 1430 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
___________
ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER
ERROR IN THE RESULTS OF THE FINAL VOTING BY THE HOUSE ON THE SECOND READING OF THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2010 ON TUESDAY, 29TH MARCH, 2011
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to bring to your attention that there was an error in the results of the final voting by the House on the Second Reading of the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2010, which took place yesterday, Tuesday, 29th March, 2011. The result of the final vote was announced as follows: Ayes – 93, Noes – 0 and Abstentions – 20.
Further verification has now revealed that, in fact, the correct result of the voting was Ayes – 91, Noes – 0 and Abstentions – 19. I wish, therefore, to sincerely apologise to the House and the nation for this inadvertent arithmetic error.
I further order that the records of the House be amended accordingly.
I thank you.
____________
REPRIMAND OF DR GUY SCOTT, MP
Mr Speaker: I have a ruling to make.
I order you, Dr Guy Scott, Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central Parliamentary Constituency, to go and stand behind the Bar of the House.
Dr Guy Scott was escorted to the Bar by the Sergeant-At-Arms.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order!
I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s Mace and go and stand behind the hon. Member.
The Sergeant-At-Arms stood behind Dr Guy Scott.
Laughter
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: I said order!
Hon. Members will recall that, on Wednesday, 23rd February, 2011, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer Number 205, and the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena Parliamentary Constituency, Mr C. Milupi, MP, was asking a supplementary question, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. G. Sichilima, MP, raised the following Point of Order:
“Mr Speaker, I wish to apologise to you for disturbing your deliberations and, indeed, the hon. ‘President’ who is on the Floor. However, I rise on a very serious point of order concerning a column in The Post No. 5241 of Wednesday, 23rd February, 2011, on page 18, entitled, “From Somewhere is Cyberspace,” which read:
“Dear Hon Esther Banda, MP,
“You are the only MP in good standing with the PF who has been appointed to the Select Committee to scrutinise the appointment or reappointment by President Banda of Irene Mambilima as Chair of the ECZ.
“To establish the status quo, you, as a committee, would have to call as many witnesses as possible out of the following: Judge Florence Mumba …
“It might, though I doubt, be useful to have the Vice-President, George Kunda, who is alleged to have involved himself on his tribesman Kalale’s behalf.
“I am sure you can think of some more yourself. Please try and ensure that the clerk of the committee has properly informed the media about its proceedings, and try to persuade the committee that, as much of the proceedings, if not all, should be in the public domain.
“You are, no doubt, aware that the phrase ‘rubber stamp’ is an example of unparliamentary language. The best way to avoid inadvertently using it is to avoid acting like one. If you are unhappy about the direction things are taking, then stand your ground. If you think Judge Mambilima will be unable to ride the tiger, that is, the ECZ, for whatever reason, then give her the thumbs down. History will vindicate you.
“Yours in the struggle against “gon’ga” democracy,
Laughter
“Guy Scott
Vice President.”{mospagebreak}
Hon G. Sichilima, MP, continued to state as follows:
“Mr Speaker, you have guided some of us who are senior hon. Members of this House that there are laid down procedures to be followed by this House. Why should the hon. Member suggest inviting witnesses to the Committee when the laid down procedure demands privacy in some cases? I need your serious ruling, Sir.”
Hon Members, in my immediate remarks, I stated as follows:
“The hon Deputy Minister of Home Affairs has raised a point of order with regard to what, in the profession, is known as an open letter from one hon. Member of Parliament to another Hon. Member of Parliament on a matter that has been summarised by the hon. Deputy Minister. From what the point of order contains, there could be several issues involved in the whole matter. There are times when I would rule that I first have to establish a prima facie case before I can take the matter any further. However, in this particular case, a prima facie case has been established for me by the author of the open letter. As such, I hereby refer the point of order to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for consideration. This appears to be a straightforward matter which should be dealt with expeditiously since there is only one witness who is the author of the open letter himself.
“The Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services will, without prejudice, determine the offence, if any, that the hon. Member for Lusaka Central may have committed. Again, without prejudice, the Committee will be free to determine the penalty or penalties or punishment, if any, that will be meted out on the Hon. Member for Lusaka Central if he is found guilty. In accordance with the laid down procedure, the Committee will bring its report here containing its observations and recommendations for the decision of the House.”
Hon. Members, in line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Dr G. Scott, MP, requesting him to confirm or deny whether the article in question and its contents were correctly attributed to him. The hon. Member’s letter of response reads as follows:
“Dear Madam,
I write in reference to your letter of 24th February, 2011, your Reference No. NAS/11/17/2 Conf to confirm that the words contained in The Post article of 23rd February wrongly headlined “From Somewhere is Cyberspace” (should be “From Somewhere in Cyberspace”) are, indeed, mine.
Yours faithfully,
Guy Scott, MP.”
The Office of the Clerk also wrote to the Editor-in-Chief of The Post requesting him to state whether the article and its contents were correctly attributed to Dr G. Scott, MP. The House may wish to know that no response was received from The Post.
The House may wish to note that the point of order made against Dr G. Scott, MP, raises the question of breach of parliamentary privileges and contempt of the House vis á vis the following issues:
(i) premature publication of information pertaining to the proceedings of a select committee;
(ii) a Member attempting to influence a committee and intimidate its Member with the intention of deterring the Committee and the Member from performing their parliamentary duty independently;
(iii) a Member interfering in the work of a select committee by suggesting its witnesses;
(iv) a Member misleading the public on the proceedings of a select committee dealing with the scrutiny of Presidential appointments; and
(v) A Member using derogatory remarks in reference to the National Assembly.
Hon. Members, the following are the authorities on these breaches:
1. Breach of Privilege vis-à-vis Premature Publication of Information pertaining to the Proceedings of a Select Committee
Section 25 (a) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, provides:
“25. Any person who publishes, save by the general or special leave of the Assembly, a report of any proceedings of the Assembly or any Committee when such proceedings have not been held in public shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.” In addition, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book, Practice and Procedure of Parliament, sixth Edition, page 297, state:
“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to publish any part of the proceedings or evidence given before, or any document presented to a parliamentary committee before such proceedings, evidence or documents have been reported to the House.”
2. Breach of Privilege Vis-À-Vis Attempting to Influence a Committee and Intimidating its Member with the Intention of Deterring the Committee and the Member from Performing their Parliamentary Duty Independently
Erskine May, in his book entitled Parliamentary Practice, 23rd Edition, on page 147, states:
“Conduct not amounting to a direct attempt improperly to influence Members in the discharge of their duties but having a tendency to impair their independence in the future performance of their duty may be treated as a contempt.”
Further, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book, Practice and Procedure of Parliament, 6th Edition, on page 301, state:
“Any attempt to influence a member otherwise than by way of argument which has as its motive the intention to deter him from performing his duty, constitutes a breach of privilege. Thus, an attempt to intimidate members by way of threats with a view to influencing them in their parliamentary conduct is a breach of privilege.”
In addition, Section 23(b) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, states:
“23. Any person shall be guilty of an offence who –
(b) endeavours to compel either directly or indirectly, any member by force, insult or menace to declare himself in favour of, or against, any Bill, resolution, matter, rule or thing submitted to, or intended to be submitted to, the Assembly.”
3. Breach of Privilege vis-à-vis a Member Interfering in the Work of a Select Committee by Suggesting its Witnesses
Standing Order 132(2) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005, states:
“Portfolio, general purposes and select committees shall have the power to invite submissions from the members of the public and interested persons and institutions on any matter within their terms of reference.”
4. Breach of Privilege vis-à-vis a Member Misleading the Public on the Proceedings of a Select Committee Dealing with the Scrutiny of the Presidential Appointments
Section 25(b) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, states:
“Any person who publishes any false or scandalous libel on the Assembly or any report which willfully mispresents in any way any proceedings of the Assembly or any committee shall be guilty of an offence and shall be libel on conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months, or to both.”
5. Breach of Privilege vis-à-vis a Member Referring to the National Assembly in a Derogatory Manner
M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakder, in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, 6th Edition, on page 293, state:
“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to make speeches, or to print or publish any libels, reflecting on the character of proceedings of the House or its committees …
“Speeches and writings reflecting on the House or its committees or Members are punished by the House as a contempt on the principle that acts will tend to obstruct the Houses in the performance of their functions by diminishing the respect due to them.”
As hon. Members will recall, in my immediate ruling on the point of order, I stated that a prima facie case had been established for me by Dr G. Scott, MP in his open letter and I referred the matter to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services.
I wish to inform the House that the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services met to consider the point of order raised by Hon. G. Sichilima, MP. Dr G. Scott, MP, who appeared before the Committee to make his oral submission on the matter. The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. G. Sichilima, MP, also appeared before the Committee to clarify his point of order against Dr G. Scott, MP.
After examining the written and oral submissions of Dr G. Scott, MP and the verbal submission of the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. G. Sichilima, MP, the Committee established that:
1. by authoring and causing to be published the article in which the hon. Member revealed the name of Mrs E. M. Banda, MP as a member of a select committee and of Justice Ireen Chirwa Mambilima as a nominee who was being scrutinised by the select committee for appointment as the Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), Dr G. Scott, MP, prematurely published the proceedings of the select committee. This is so because the proceedings of such a select committee are confidential until its report is tabled on the Floor of the House;
2. by causing the article to be published in The Post where all the members of the select committee could access it and by directing the Committee on what to do when, among other things, he wrote:
“To establish the status quo, you as a committee, would have to call as many witnesses as possible out of the following Dr G. Scott, MP, attempted to directly influence the Committee and its members in the discharge of their parliamentary duty.”
Furthermore, as a senior member of the Patriotic Front (PF), he particularly attempted to influence the manner in which Mrs E. M. Banda, MP, performed her duty as a member of the select committee by not only addressing the letter to her, but also telling her to ensure that the concerns of the Patriotic Front were taken into account by the Select Committee. This can be seen from the following excerpt of the article:
“Dear Hon. Esther Banda, MP,
“You are the only MP in good standing with the PF who has been appointed to the select committee to scrutinise the appointment or reappointment of Ireen Mambilima as Chair of the ECZ. I, therefore, am writing to you to ensure that you understand the PF’s concerns and ensure that they are attended to during meetings and in the report of the Committee.
Guy Scott
Vice-President.”
3. by directing the Committee on whom to invite as witnesses, Dr G. Scott, MP interfered with the power vested in the committee’s understanding of Order 130(2) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005 to decide which witnesses to invite to assist in its functions;
4. by directing Mrs E. M. Banda, MP to ensure that the clerk of the Committee had properly informed the media about the proceedings and to persuade the Committee to ensure that, as much as possible, if not all the proceedings of the Committee were in the public domain, Dr G. Scott, MP, misled the public that the proceedings of such a select committee are open to the public when, in fact, they are held in camera;
5. Dr G. Scott, MP, signed off his article with the words:
“Yours in the struggle against gong’a democracy.”
For those who may not be aware, the word ‘gong’a’ means fake.
Hon. Members may wish to know that Dr G. Scott confirmed to the Committee that the words ‘fake democracy’ were in reference to the ECZ and the three arms of Government, namely the Executive, Judiciary and Legislature. In this regard, the Committee found that referring to the National Assembly as part of a fake democracy was derogatory and amounted to disrespecting and ridiculing the House.
Hon. Members, on the basis of these findings, the Committee established that the hon. Member for Lusaka Central Parliamentary Constituency, Dr G. Scott, MP, was in breach of parliamentary privilege and contempt of the House. Further, the Committee observed that the breaches of parliamentary privileges committed by the hon. Member were serious in the sense that, at least, three of the five breaches I have just outlined are indictable offences under the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia.
The House may wish to know that two of these offences carry a penalty of a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or imprisonment with hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months, or to both.
The House may further wish to know that, in determining the punishment to impose on the hon. Member, the Committee considered invoking the prosecution of Dr G. Scott, MP. However, the Committee opted to exercise leniency and, therefore, resolved that Dr G. Scott, MP, be suspended from the service of the House for thirty (30) days, in accordance with the provisions of Section 28 (1) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, which provides:
“28 (1) Where any member commits any contempt of the Assembly, whether specified in section nineteen or otherwise, the Assembly may, by resolution, either direct the Speaker to reprimand such member or suspend him from the service of the Assembly for such period as it may determine:
“Provided that such period shall not extend beyond the last day of the meeting next following that in which the resolution is passed, or of the session in which the resolution is passed, whichever shall first occur.”
In view of the foregoing, and, in accordance with Section 28 (1) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia, and Standing Order No. 151(2), which requires a resolution of the House on a matter of this nature, I now put the question.
Question that the hon. Member for Lusaka Central be suspended from the service of the House for the Fifth Session of the Tenth Assembly as recommended by the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for a period of thirty (30) days put and agreed to.
Mr Speaker: I now turn to address you, Dr G. Scott, MP.
I have to inform you that the House is extremely displeased with your misconduct of blatantly disregarding its rules and procedures by authoring and causing to be published in The Post the article in which you prematurely disclosed the proceedings of the Select Committee to the public.
Your irresponsible conduct not only interfered with the task of the Committee and of Mrs E. M. Banda, MP, as a member of that select committee, but also had the potential to injure the nominee who did not have the opportunity to defend herself.
As a senior member of the House, you should be familiar with the Standing Orders of the House which clearly set out the rules and procedures of such a select committee.
Dr G. Scott, it is difficult for me to see why you had to conduct yourself in such a demeaning manner. You are aware that although the proceedings of such a select committee are not open to the public, Members of this House have an opportunity to debate the report of the select committee in the House. It is during this debate that you should have expressed your views and concerns, on the nominee, to the House as well as to the public. It was, therefore, unwarranted for you to rush to the media and prematurely disclose the proceedings of the select committee.
Furthermore, your reference to the National Assembly as being part of a fake democracy did not only make a mockery of the House, but also brought it into public ridicule and disrespect.
Let me remind you, Dr Scott, that the respect accorded to this House has been built over the years and the House thus expects every hon. Member to continue building upon it. It was, therefore, highly irresponsible of you, a senior hon. Member of this House, to bring down the integrity and dignity of this House in the manner that you did.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: This House will not tolerate such gross indiscipline and misconduct from any hon. Member. Let this, therefore, be a warning to all other hon. Members.
So, in accordance with the decision of the House, you are suspended from the service of the National Assembly, accordingly. I take this opportunity, furthermore, to remind you, Dr Scott, that, in accordance with Section 28(2) of the Powers and Privileges Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, during the period of your suspension, you will not receive a salary or allowance that you are entitled to as an hon. Member, and you will not participate in any business or activities of the Assembly and its committees, including those in which, if any, you participate outside the National Assembly in your capacity as an hon. Member of this House.
I now order you to leave the Chamber through the main entrance on a thirty (30) day suspension as resolved by the House.
I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
________ {mospagebreak}
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
JAPAN INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION AGENCY
400. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:
(a) how much money the Government of Zambia received from the Japanese Government through the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA) in 2009 and 2010 for the following projects in Luapula Province:
(i) roads;
(ii) boreholes; and
(iii) schools;
(b) whether the money was used for the intended purpose; and
(c) what action the Zambian Government took against officials who failed to apply the funds in accordance with the intended purpose.
The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, the Government did not receive any money from JICA for projects in Luapula Province for roads and schools. However, the Government received a total of US$4,910,000 for the construction of boreholes in 2009 and 2010 broken down as follows:
Year Amount
2009 301,517,000 Japanese Yen (US$3.35 million)
2010 139,163,000 Japanese Yen (US$1.55 million)
Mr Speaker, a total of 200 boreholes were constructed successfully in the Luapula Province by JICA during the period 2009 to 2010. However, the expenditure of US$4.91 million included overhead costs like studies, technical assistance, dry boreholes and technologically enhanced mud drilling to ensure higher yield and longer lifespan.
Sir, JICA funds are not directly handled by the Zambian Government. The Grant Agreement with Japan requires that JICA awards contracts to companies that implement the projects. After completion, the projects are handed over to the Government of the Republic of Zambia which receives the final output from the project.
Therefore, it is JICA’s responsibility to take action against any officials who may fail to apply the funds in accordance with the intended purpose.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out …
Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: Order!
The House is in session and there is business being transacted. May the hon. Member, please, continue.
Laughter
Mr D. Mwila: … whether the Japanese Government will continue supporting us financially after the earthquake that has happened in that country.
Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, at the moment, the position that we are aware of is that there will be no immediate disruption to the funding. Some support is in phases and certain phases are continuing. Until we are advised otherwise, we will maintain the position as it was before the calamity.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, taking advantage of the guidance you have given before that hon. Ministers must anticipate questions, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to indicate to this House how much, on average, it cost the Government to drill each of the 200 boreholes minus the other costs she mentioned such as training. This is so that hon. Members of Parliament, in lobbying for support, will have a concrete figure.
Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, from the figures given, it is indicative of how much each borehole costs if you subtract the cost on the other ancillary works that have to be done. Unless the question had been specific on how much each borehole cost, I am not in position to state the specific amounts. I would have gladly given a breakdown of the costs if they had been specifically required.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
LUSAKA CITY COUNCIL FUNDS
401. Dr Chishya (Pambashe) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:
(a) whether any public funds meant for cholera and other health programmes in the city of Lusaka had been deposited in personal accounts between 1991 and 1993;
(b) if so, in which banks the funds at (a) had been deposited;
(c) how long the funds had been kept in those personal accounts;
(d) how much interest the public funds accrued in the personal accounts; and
(e) whether the funds had been recovered with interest.
The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, according to the records maintained by the Lusaka City Council (LCC), there were no funds meant for cholera and other health programmes deposited in personal accounts between 1991 and 1993.
Sir, there were no funds that were deposited in the banks or kept in personal accounts.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, since there were no public funds deposited in personal accounts, there was no interest accrued to the personal accounts.
In conclusion, Sir, there were no funds that were expected to be recovered with interest, as the records show nothing of such transactions occurring.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, what was the extent of the cholera outbreak between 1991 and 1993, a period in which Government Ministers found it appropriate to mitigate this epidemic?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I think that is an irrelevant question because the principal question was not meant to find out how much money was spent on the mitigation of cholera. The question and answer were specific.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what measures have been put in place by this Government to deter hon. Ministers from putting money into their personal accounts.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, there were no funds put in personal accounts. If any one of the hon. Members has a specific issue to raise as regards a particular bank and hon. Minister, they can raise a particular question. However, in the meantime, that question does not arise.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, how possible is it that a Government hon. Minister or President can put his personal money in a Government account?
Mr Speaker: Order!
That is a reverse of what is under discussion here.
Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, in the event of public funds finding themselves in personal accounts, I would like to find out which official would be responsible.
Mr Speaker: Order!
By you saying that we have not done well with regard to workshops, that is called conjecture and it is not allowed in this House.
Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister categorically state that it is not in order for a Government hon. Minister or ministry to put money, which was supposed to be for the mitigation of cholera, into an account and not utilise it for the purpose it was meant for. Is that the correct position?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, before I answer that question, I want to clarify that this question was specifically on whether money was put in the account of the LCC or not. We are not talking about the money being put in personal accounts at the Ministry of Health or Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I want to confirm that, indeed, it is irregular if such a thing happened. This is a general question and we need more details. If you have more details of some irregularities you are aware of, bring us specific information and we shall provide it to the House. As regards this question, we are specifically talking about the LCC.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, following the answer given by his Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice and taking into account financial procedures and regulations, will he state whether it is actually possible for an hon. Minister to put public money in his/her personal accounts?
Mr Speaker: Order!
Again, that is conjecture and it is not allowed in this House.
Interruptions
NATIONAL CONSTITUTIONAL CONFERENCE
402. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:
(a) how much money had been spent on allowances and transport for delegates to the National Constitutional Conference (NCC);
(b) how many vehicles had been purchased for use by the NCC and what the total cost was; and
(c) how the NCC would dispose of the vehicles.
Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, the membership of the conference was around 500 people with fluctuations caused by frequent changes on account of withdrawals and deaths.
Sir, a summarised position of applications of funds towards allowances from inception, in 2007, till dissolution of the conference on 31st August, 2010, on an annual basis by category, is as follows:
Fund Application Amount
(K)
Subsistence Allowance 43,450,593,000
Daily Transport Allowance 8,936,902,000
Transport Refund 1,101,800,000
Sitting Allowance 30,460,470,000
Total 83,949,765,000
Mr Speaker, there were nineteen vehicles purchased at a total of K2, 775,320,000. The motor vehicles, which were purchased for use by the NCC, will be redistributed to Government ministries and institutions of need.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice confirm that due to this Government’s failure to negotiate with other stakeholders to come up with a Constitution, this Government has spent K83,949,765,000 on allowances for nothing because the Constitution has been rejected?
Interruptions
Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I think it is better to put facts very clear. Money has not been spent for nothing.
Interruptions
Mr Munkombwe: Sir, after six months, this Government will re-address this issue. Therefore, there was no money spent for nothing.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice confirm that the allowances given to delegates were not just given to hon. Members of the United Party for National Development (UPND) who participated in the NCC and that hon. Ministers should not go on public radio …
Mr Speaker: Order!
You are debating.
Interruptions
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, whatever money was spent on the NCC process was spent according to the law made by this august House and it was budgeted for by this august House. The issue of allowances was in the law and hon. Members of the UPND, like anybody else, got the allowances. However, of course, they voted against the Bill, which is unfortunate.
Therefore, Sir, money was spent according to the law and the rich product of the NCC, for those with intellectual capacity who contributed, is still a record for us to utilise in future. We are still committed to the Constitutional Review Process.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, during the enactment of the National Constitutional Conference Act, where there some members of the Committee who voted against the report of the Committee and if so, what action was taken?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, is it the National Conference Constitution Act or the Bill which came yesterday?
Hon. Opposition Members: The Act!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we know the practice and procedure in this House. You do not vote against your own report. I think that it is for this House to take action if anybody has breached the rules of the House.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, out of the K30,460,470,000 sitting allowances, how much did the chairpersons get?
Laughter
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, some of the chairpersons of committees of the NCC are hon. Members of this august House and we do not debate ourselves.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I know we are not supposed to debate ourselves, but how much was given to the hon. Ministers who sat …
Mrs Kawandami: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: Order!
I repeat. The House is transacting very important business. From what has gone on, so far, none of the hon. Members who have participated in the Questions for Oral Answer Session has breached any rules of procedure. That is what I am listening for. So, what point of order is that about? Everybody is in order here. The hon. Member for Munali may continue.
Laughter
Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Learned Minister of Justice who is also the Vice-President and Leader of Government Business in this House, how much hon. Ministers were getting in allowances at the NCC. Did they get the same amount as those who did not use Government vehicles? Was it the same amount across the board?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, all the allowances were paid according to the law. Hon. Ministers are part of the House. So, we cannot debate ourselves.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, the NCC ended in August, last year. Today, the hon. Minister stated that the nineteen vehicles would be redistributed to Government agencies. May I know when this will be done?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that a committee has been put in place in accordance with Government regulations, which deal with distribution of Government property, and the process is underway.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, K83 billion was spent on the NCC process. Despite spending such an amount, certain processes such as holding the Referendum and taking the final report to the country was not done. Can His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice inform this House why this was not done?
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the content of the report is public knowledge. The report has been published and is available for public consumption. The Referendum was supposed to come after the enactment of the Constitution Bill which, unfortunately, some hon. Members refused to endorse even after participating in the NCC. However, this is part of democracy. We shall, of course, review the situation and re-present the Bill in future.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out where these vehicles are currently.
Interruptions
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the vehicles are in Government possession.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know what procedure will be followed in distributing the vehicles because, as Member of Parliament for Chilubi, I would like to ask for one because our health post has no vehicle.
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the vehicles will be distributed according to the regulations by the committee which is in place. These regulations give adequate guidelines on how Government property should be dealt with and how it should be distributed.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, at the time of passing the NCC Act, the intention was that, by now, the Constitution of Zambia would be amended. Given the fact that, yesterday, the MMD Benches failed to gunner the 106 magic number required to pass the amendment, could His Honour the Vice-President and Learned Minister of Justice shed some light on some allegations that have been leveled against unnamed Members of this House by first, the hon. Minister of Broadcasting and Information Services, the very Reverend Ronald Shikapwasha, and by the hon. Minister of Education, that there were some people in the House who were blackmailing the Government before passing the Constitution Amendment Bill.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Order!
I will tell you why I am reluctant to allow this question. It is part of the rules of this House that a matter that has already been disposed of cannot be returned to. Those are your rules. You voted decisively yesterday and the matter is gone. If any of you wish to make comments on this matter outside the House, I cannot stop you. You can leave it outside the House, but your colleagues will also take you on outside the House.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order!
____
BILLS
FIRST READING
THE COMPANIES (Amendment) BILL, 2011
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Companies Amendment Bill, 2011. The object of this Bill is to amend the Companies Act.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.
I thank you.
THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2009) BILL, 2011
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Supplementary Appropriation (2009) Bill. The object of this Bill is to confirm the supplementary expenditure of monies aggregating K1,114,922,859,506 required for the services of the Republic during the financial year ended 31st December, 2009.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House when it completes its deliberations. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.
Thank you.
THIRD READING
The following Bill was read the third time and passed:
The Fisheries Bill, 2011.
______
MOTION
ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.
Question put and agreed to.
____
The House adjourned accordingly at 1540 hours on Wednesday, 30th March, 2011, sine die.
