DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 15th March, 2013

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Lawrence Evans

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ZAMBIA AIR FORCE Z-9 EH HELICOPTER INCIDENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, this statement is in response to your instructions to the Government to bring information to the House concerning various incidents affecting the Z-9 helicopters that the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) acquired.

Sir, there have been two incidents and one crash on record involving the Z-9 EH helicopters since they were delivered to ZAF in 2012. The first incident was the Shiwang’andu one, which involved a Z-9 EH Helicopter, registration number AF 746 carrying the advance party for His Excellency the President on 5th December, 2012. The pilot aborted take-off due to harsh atmospheric conditions. However, the helicopter flew back to Lusaka later on the same day. Then, there was the Kabwe incident involving a Z-9 EH helicopter, registration number AF 745 taking journalists to Mpongwe on 23rd February, 2013. The pilot executed a precautionary landing at Kohima Barracks grounds due to a minor fault with the power regulator on one of the engines. The problem was later rectified and the aircraft flew back to Lusaka on the same day. The third incident was the recent one on Tuesday, 12th March, 2013, around 1114 hours at the City Airport, which involved a Z-9 helicopter, registration number AF 744. The helicopter was part of a formation of three that were flying past in commemoration of the International Youth Day. After completing the fly-past, the formation rejoined for landing at City Airport. However, as the pilot was preparing to land, he lost control, resulting in the aircraft going down. The Captain of the aircraft, Major Misapa Mukupa, sustained injuries and, eventually, died at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). Captain Kenneth Chilala, the co-pilot was treated for minor injuries.

Sir, a Board of Inquiry (BOI) has since been instituted to investigate the circumstances that led to the recent crash. The proceedings of the board will be submitted to the Ministry of Defence within the first half of April, 2013, or, possibly, even earlier.

Mr Speaker, the Z-9 Helicopter is new and safe enough to be operated by our air force, although we have had such unfortunate incidents. All I can say is that the Board of Inquiry will provide more details.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by His Honour the Vice-President.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, what is the country of origin of the manufacturers of the Z-9 helicopters? Further, have the manufacturers been contacted about the malfunctioning of their product?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as far as I am aware, the engines are French, the avionics, that is to say, the instrumentation and controls, are American while the frame is made in China. Assembly is also done in China.

Sir, yes, the suppliers of both the machine and training for the pilots have been informed of these incidents.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, usually, when such an incident happens in the aviation industry, the make of planes is suspended from operation. Are we going to suspend the operations of these aircraft for the time being, until we know what is causing them to malfunction?

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, that is up to the Board of Inquiry to determine, if its inquiry leads in a direction that suggests possible manufacturing faults. I am not aware if that has happened yet.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President ready to bring back this statement after the BOI submits a report?

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, I will see to it that the findings of the BOI are made public. When I said that the report would be submitted, possibly, even earlier than planned, to the Ministry of Defence, it was a kind of code entailing that I thought that the investigators knew what the problem was on Tuesday. However, they wanted to be doubly sure before they could go public on it.

I thank you, Sir.

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HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to raise this very important procedural point of order. Before I do that, I would like to sympathise with the people of Livingstone and tell them that, very soon, we shall go for a by-election because we are petitioning the results of the just-ended by-election there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: What is your point of order?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, I raised a point of order pertaining to the composition of the Board of Directors of the Energy Regulation Board (ERB). I also produced evidence on that membership.

Sir, arising from that point of order, you directed that the Government should issue a ministerial statement. Indeed, the hon. Minister of Justice, on behalf of the Government, came and made a ministerial statement on the Floor of this House in which he admitted that the Government had erred in appointing eleven members to the ERB Board, instead of seven. However, as he was making the statement, he threatened officials who were allegedly responsible for leaking that information to me although we are all aware that this honourable House passed a law to protect whistle-blowers. We are also aware that the membership of the ERB Board is public knowledge. You have been graciously circulating the Farmers Magazine, in which the membership of the Board of Directors of the ERB is indicated. The hon. Minister, himself, …

Hon. Government Members: What is your point of order?

Mr Mwiimbu: You listen.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: … announced the composition of the board to Zambians. The composition of the board is also on the Internet. The point I am raising is whether that Government is in order to punish innocent people at the ERB, whom they are ‘achusing’ of leaking …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: … information that is correct and available in the public domain, and punish individuals suspected of having leaked that information to me when those whistle-blowers are protected by the Act. You are asking who they are? I will tell you.

Mr Speaker, the Executive Director of the ERB, Mr Sitali …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you have made your point. If you want, just put your question. I am sure that you are aware that we do not debate individuals. That is a very established parliamentary practice. If you have a point to make, I would rather you limit it to the point of principle.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am much obliged. I was being asked to name the people.

Mr Speaker: No, you can ignore that touting.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the issue I am raising is whether the Government is in order to punish individuals, who allegedly furnished me with information, when the information I used was obtained from the documents you circulated to us, as hon. Members of Parliament. Is the Government in order to punish innocent individuals, who were not involved in providing the information that I laid on the Table for the benefit of everybody?

I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: As His Honour the Vice-President responds to the next question, I invite him to respond to what the hon. Member for Monze Central Parliamentary Constituency has, at length, raised.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is the desire of every reporter to cover very important persons’ (VIP) programmes. So, when the same journalists are seen covering the VIPs, others are demoralised. Is it now the policy of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) to have specific journalists, particularly female ones, cover certain VIPs like yourself?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, as far as I am aware, it is common practice for senior people to ask for the journalist that they want from all agencies, not just the ZNBC. That is because some people are much more competent than others. However, yesterday, I did not ask for any specific journalist, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us have some silence.

Dr Scott: … but information came out on the ZNBC that I had appointed a Commission of Inquiry into the helicopter accident, which was a misunderstanding and the kind of thing that you get when some less-competent reporters cover important functions. I use the best and it is as simple as that.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, I had also asked you to respond to what Hon. Mwiimbu raised.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, with your indulgence, I shall consult quietly with the hon. Minister of Justice on the legal intricacies of the point that was raised and deal with it before the thirty minutes run out.

Mr Speaker: Very well. Leave is granted.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, I raised a question …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for granting me this point of order. As you know, I rarely rise on points of order.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: However, this particular point of order is very important and compelling because it borders on the operations of the House.

Sir, the rules and procedures of the House are that the Business of the House takes precedence over everything else. Throughout this session, four hon. Members of the House have been absent from the Business of the House, only to pop up this morning. These include the hon. Members for Chongwe and Kafue. Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to have set a very dangerous precedent in the operations of the House?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Before we proceed, I am concerned with the conduct on the right. I do not want to give a detailed observation, but suffice it to say that I am concerned about this. Let us exercise self-restraint.

The point that the hon. Member for Nalikwanda has raised is, obviously, a matter of concern not only to him, but also to the Speaker. I sit at a vantage point, and I note the spaces that are unoccupied, both on the left as well as the right. It is very conspicuous, but not restricted to the right. I think that I have repeatedly raised this point in this session. All I can say, for the time being, is that the Chief Whip should take note of this very serious issue and deal with it accordingly.

That is my ruling.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, I asked His Honour the Vice-President whether the Malawian Judge, Mr Lovemore Chikopa, was in the country and, if he was in the country, what he was doing. The answer from His Honour the Vice-President was that the Judge was in Zambia and that the tribunal he is chairing was still on. Later, I read reports of the case being in the courts of law. Can His Honour the Vice-President reconcile the two issues, that is, the tribunal being on and the case being in the courts of law.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we are waiting for the ruling of the courts, which will determine whether the tribunal is on or not. Meanwhile, as far as we are concerned, in the absence of such a ruling, the tribunal is on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, a few days ago, we witnessed a massive evacuation of inmates from Mukobeko Maximum Security Prison. How does that reflect on the governance mode of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, especially in respect to human rights?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the construction of Mukobeko Maximum Security Prison began under the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, but has not held a single prisoner until sometime last week.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is Mwembeshi.

The Vice-President: Sorry, it is the Mwembeshi Maximum Security Prison, which is the adjunct to the Mwembeshi Open-Air Prison on Mumbwa Road. I apologise to my sharp-eared colleague on the other side. I thought he was going to raise a point of order, but he has decided to let me be.

The construction of Mwembeshi Maximum Security Prison began under the UNIP Government and went through all the twenty years of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government without being completed. So, we resolved – since the Prerogative of Mercy Committee falls under my office – that it needed to be finished as promptly as possible so that Mukobeko Maximum Security Prison is de-congested. That is, exactly, what has happened. That matter is not connected to any visitors from the Commonwealth, riots, alleged killings or anything at Mukobeko Maximum Security Prison. It was one of the priorities of the PF Government and it has been done.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, it is very important that information given to this House is correct and factual. Is it in order, therefore, for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to inform this House that Hon. Nkombo and I were arrested from a house where a person had been killed when we do not even know the house? The fact is that Hon. Nkombo and I went to the police for consultations and had nothing to do with that killing.

Is he in order not to correct the information that he gave to this House?

Mr Speaker: I do not, for obvious reasons, recall the exact statement. However, whatever the actual text might have been, it goes without saying that it is important that hon. Members, generally, are factual in their presentation of information to the House. I am unable, in the absence of that text, to say whether the hon. Member was out of order.

The hon. Member for Kasenengwa can continue.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, we have recently experienced shortages of mealie-meal and this has persisted despite the ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock. For four days now, in Mpongwe, people have been sleeping on queues to buy 10kg bags of mealie-meal at KR25. What is the Government doing to ensure that this does not persist, considering that we also had a shortage of mealie-meal recently in Chipata?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is a bit of a conundrum because we do not want to encourage a situation in which all the milling is done in Lusaka and the Copperbelt towns and, then, subsidies are paid to the millers for them to take the mealie-meal elsewhere. What has been happening in Chipata, for example, is that the main mill broke down. Only black marketeers, if you want to call them that – and I do not use that term in an insulting manner, but traders who were buying mealie-meal from as far away as Lusaka to Chipata – were able to supply. There being no subsidy on the transport costs, the shortage and high prices came in.

Sir, when you see a queue for mealie-meal and people buying four to six 25kg bags at a time, you realise that they are not buying for their own consumption, but for retailing in neighbouring countries. So, we have a difficult choice. Either we subsidise the smuggling or we leave the pressure on so that, at least, some local solution, such as hammer milling, can be developed. The vigayo are receiving maize from the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) and …

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, what is chigayo?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, a chigayo is a small hammer mill that does not sieve the maize meal into breakfast and roller, but mixes it all together.

Sir, I assure hon. Members that the small millers, who are enterprising people whom we want to help, are receiving maize from the FRA. The difficulty arises in the milling of breakfast meal, which carries the premium even in the neighbouring countries. So, we have a difficult equation to balance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, it is now close to one and half years since the PF came into power and a number of District Commissioners (DCs) and Permanent Secretaries (PSs) were dismissed. Have those people been paid their terminal packages?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, most of them have been paid but, again, that is one of those questions to which I could have given a very precise answer had I been given an advance notice.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, may I congratulate Mr Evans Lawrence, the hon. Member for Livingstone and the people of Livingstone on winning the elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, in the recent past, we have had individuals belonging to a political grouping wanting to hold press conferences outside this country and petitioning the Commonwealth so that Zambia can be suspended from the organisation. Do we have a situation in this country that warrants such unpatriotic behaviour from some of our colleagues?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not think that the situation warranted going outside the country by any means at all because, after all, that press conference was covered very intensively and closely, here, in Zambia. So, if it had been held here, it would have also been closely covered. Personally, I tend to blame, and I do so with great humility, certain habits of thoughts that are common to lawyers when they are looking for a court that they can convince more easily than another. The court of international opinion, which does not know where Zambia is, is, perhaps, an easier one to put a case to than the Zambian people, who are our only legitimate court.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chungu (Luanshya): Mr Speaker, recently, we heard reports that there is no police station in Mwandi District, and that police officers operate under a tree. What could have hindered the building of one over the past twenty years?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, things have improved slightly with regard to the construction of a police station in Mwandi. There is a tent now and a building is being constructed. As to why there has not been one for twenty years of the MMD’s rule, I do not wish to speculate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, a few weeks ago, a lawyer representing the Former Head of State, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, called the Zambians who were demanding the removal of his client’s immunity ‘useful idiots.’

Hon. Member: What is his name?

Mr Chisala: His name is Mr Amsterdam.

Sir, that kind of language seems to have been used, for quite some time, by some disgruntled and disorganised foreign characters. That being the case, and in order to give the Zambians the respect they deserve, …

Mr Speaker: Is that a question or what?

Mr Chisala: The question is: How does the Government intend to protect the respect of the people of Zambia from being trampled on by such people, who have been insulting them?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: … very difficult for the Government to protect the country from the insults of people who do not come into the country. Therefore, I advise the questioner not to lose sleep and just leave the notion of a lawyer named after some town to one side.  It is, really, an irrelevant matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, there have been many political deaths in Rufunsa and, just recently, Livingstone. Is His Honour the Vice-President in a position to constitute boards of inquiry to find out the causes of the deaths before they spread to other constituencies where by-elections will take place?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, but could the questioner clarify what he means by ‘political deaths’ in Rufunsa. I am not sure that I understood, exactly, what he was referring to. Could he shed some light on that before I comment.

Mr Speaker: Will the hon. Member for Chadiza repeat his question?

Mr Mbewe repeated the question.

The Vice-President: Sir, I am not sure that a board of inquiry would achieve very much. I am reminded of Sir Winston Churchill’s famous remark that, “In war, the first casualty is the truth.” For example, what happened during the Second World War (WWII), or even the First World War (WWI), which happened more than 100 years ago, is still the subject of debate. What I will do is appeal to everybody on both sides of this House to leave the blame game aside. Let us apportion responsibility to ourselves and reduce on this warlike mentality that we occasionally encounter in by-elections. Let us create a civil and civilian state of affairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, the nation will be holding a by-election in Lukulu West next month, and one of the most important campaign issues is going to be the Watopa/Katunda Road. When, exactly, will this road be tarred?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, fortunately, the questioner has followed my advice given on earlier occasions by forewarning me about his intention to ask this question. So, I am able to extract the right page from the Link Zambia 8,000 Road Project and inform him that the upgrading of 270 km of the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa Road in the Western Province is part of Phase III of the project. Proposals and a detailed engineering design and tender were received on 1st February, 2013, and contracts for the study and design shall be signed by the end of April, 2013. The actual works will commence in 2014.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has indicated that Judge Chikopa has been resident in Zambia …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: … since he first came from Malawi. Despite Malawi being nearby, he has been around all this time. Do you find it morally prudent to spend taxpayers’ money on such a venture? Do you not feel that these are some of the issues that will haunt you after you leave office?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are enough people to worry about the whereabouts and living of one Judge without me becoming involved. Besides, as I explained earlier, we regard the tribunal as on-going in the sense that it has not yet been declared illegal. Since the tribunal has not been blocked, there is a need for us to have the Judge around. That is my knee-jerk response.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, how much money has, so far, been spent on this Judge from Malawi?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I have no idea and, obviously, no access to the figures while I am here in the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, so much has been said about Judge Chikopa.  As Hon. Mbulakulima mentioned, Malawi is nearby. Is it not possible to send Judge Chikopa back and only call him back when the matter has been determined by our courts of law?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I will consult on that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, …

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, a few minutes ago, His Honour the Vice-President said ‘This is my mediocre response’. Is he in order to bring a mediocre response to this honourable House when the people of Zambia want to get credible information from him on what is required for them to develop this country, not that which is mediocre? Is he in order to say what he said?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I think that what we have is an instance of a communication problem. He did not refer to the word ‘mediocre.’ He used the phrase ‘knee-jerk.’

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Musungu uyo, ba Shikapwasha.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, Kabompo Township roads are in a dangerous state of disrepair. Recently, the hon. Minister responsible for roads gave an assurance that the roads would be worked on. Has the Government started varying the current contract with Belga Construction Company in order to provide for the upgrading of Kabompo township roads to bituminous standard, as the hon. Minister had assured the residents?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Belga Construction Company is, currently, working on the Kasempa/Kabompo Road, and it has been decided, as you correctly pointed out, that, since the contractor is approaching Kabompo, it is prudent that township roads within the district are done under the current contract. That entails raising the variation order of the existing scope so that works could be undertaken. These variations have been submitted and will be approved any time from now. So, works on the Kabompo township roads should be concluded three months after approval of the variation order.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Government Member: Ema MP aya.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order.

Mr Chishimba: Iwe, wayamba.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Member: Savimbi!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to contradict himself by saying that it is not right for Zambians to take Zambian issues outside, on one hand, and keep a foreigner from Malawi to head a tribunal looking at a Zambian matter, to the exclusion of Zambians, on the other? Is he in order to allow such contradictions?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Igwee!

Mr Speaker: In due course, as he responds to the next question, His Honour the Vice-President will address that point.

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, may I also add my voice to those who have congratulated the newly-elected hon. Member for Livingstone.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chishimba: Our Government is an inclusive one because, in it, you can even find white people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, it has been reported in the media …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chishimba: … that mining giants, in the last ten years, evaded paying tax. What measures has our Government put in place to end that?

The Vice-President: Sir, there are a number of measures that the hon. Minister of Finance, in particular, has undertaken in conjunction with the Ministry Mines, Energy and Water Development to better monitor and physically audit mineral production and export as a means of enforcing stricter compliance with the  country’s taxation laws. I am aware that there is no immediate plan to alter the taxation framework. It is the evasion of paying tax that is giving us the trouble that the questioner referred to, and that is what we are tightening up on.

Sir, as far as the question of the Malawian Judge, and the man named after a city and the leaders of the opposition parties holding a press conference in Johannesburg is concerned, I do not see any analogy between the two, except that they both demand that one has a passport and, maybe, a visa.

Mr Speaker, while I am on my feet, perhaps, I should respond to a much earlier point about the ERB. The hon. Member confused himself or is confusing me. Anyway, on the one hand, he says that there is a law protecting whistle-blowers but, on the other, he says that there is no whistle that was blown because the composition of the board was announced publicly. So, what is he saying? Is he saying that we are persecuting a whistle-blower or whistle-blowers or that we are, somehow, wrong to make the composition of the board public?

Sir, all public officers are supposed to advise their hon. Ministers. Our argument is that, when this matter came to the knowledge of the people in the ERB, they should have advised the hon. Minister who appointed too many members to the board that it was illegal to do so. However, the officers did not. Instead, they went to the Opposition and said, “Look at this good bit of juicy scandal, which you can bring up in the House against the PF.” Anyway, the events at the ERB do not, exclusively, consist of matters to do with the composition of the board. Based on some reasons, the normal termination of contracts can occur. Sometimes, contracts just come to an end. Thus, the connection that was made by the hon. Member between the alleged whistle-blowing and the termination of contracts is speculative.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker,

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to allege that those officers who have been dismissed by the ERB went to the Opposition and gave it information when he does not have evidence to that effect? The rules of this House are that, when on the Floor, a person must give factual information.

Mr Speaker: I am not inclined to allowing a dialogue on this point. The point has been made, and there are two positions here, namely, the issue of protection of whistle-blowers and the information being in the public domain. That is the issue that I understood His Honour the Vice-President to have raised. However, beyond this, I think that it will be inappropriate for this Chairperson to allow a dialogue between the hon. Member for Monze Central and His Honour the Vice-President. I also think that, generally speaking, we should be free to engage each other beyond the perimeters of the Floor of the House.

Continue, hon. Member for Kafulafuta.

Mr Chishiba: Mr Speaker, …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President, who is the Leader of Government Business in the House, in order to ignore the previous speaker, Hon. Chishimba, who said something that bordered on racism when he said that there is a white man in this House? Our Constitution clearly states that there shall be no discrimination in this country. Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to keep quiet by not clarifying that Hon. Chishimba’s statement was discriminatory?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that he has the prerogative to remain silent.

Mr Chishiba: Mr Speaker, when the PF Government came to power, it formed a number of commissions of inquiry and a lot of tax payers’ money was spent. The Zambian people expected to know the findings of the serious omissions allegedly committed by the previous Government. Can His Honour the Vice-President tell this House and the nation whether these findings will be put in the public domain, or whether the Government will remain silent about them? If the findings will be released, when will that be done?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the procedure is that the reports given to His Excellency the President are brought by him to the Cabinet, which determines whether they should go into the public domain, or how much of the information contained in the reports should be made public. I do not have a list of which reports have gone through that process and which ones have not. If the question was put to me in a different form, I would have very easily given the hon. Member a complete answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President tell this august House and the nation whether the people of Zambia should stop eating nshima because he said that the milling companies had stopped working?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, where we feel obliged to ensure that food is available is at the hammer mills. We feel that the FRA should supply maize, if necessary, through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), if there are people who are too poor to afford the maize. We are trying to let the market and the forces of supply and demand get us the proper milling capacity in some of the places it does not exist without giving the subsidies that people are used to. Of course, we care and want people to get fed. Currently, we are the only country that is food secure in our region.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President inform this House when allowances for …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale indicated.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. However, before I allow the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central to raise his point of order, may I just make a brief remark.

Hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali, I have a list, and it is not possible for everybody to ask a question on every given Friday. Therefore, those protestations …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … will not do.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to raise a point of order.

Sir, my point of order emanates from another that was raised earlier by my fellow victim, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, you ably indicated that you could not rule whether Hon. Lungu was out of order without the text that he had read in his statement on the Floor of this House on the circumstances of Hon. Muntanga’s and my arrest.  I wish to refer the House to page 3 of the ministerial statement by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Edgar Lungu, on 28th February, 2013. In the ministerial statement, he informed this House that:

“Sir, according to the police, on the evening of Monday, 25th February, 2013, between 1900 hours and 2000 hours, the UPND members attacked a truck that was carrying PF members. Since the assailant came from the UPND camp house, the police apprehended all the occupants, among whom were the two hon. Members of Parliament.”

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to have given this House a blatant lie because none of us were occupants of that house? I lay the statement on the Table and ask for a ruling from you.

Mr Nkombo laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In response to that point of order, I will allow His Honour the Vice-President to address that matter when he answers the next question.

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President inform this House when allowances for the University of Zambia (UNZA) students will be paid.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am getting sign language from the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education which, I am told, means manje manje, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, what is ‘manje manje?’

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am told that it means ‘very soon.’

Mr Speaker, before talking about the statement that has been quoted by Hon. Nkombo, let me welcome him back to the House. Some of us are very happy to see him.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the statement that Hon. Nkombo quoted attributes the explanation of what transpired to the police. The statement by the hon. Minister did not blatantly say that the explanation was what happened.  The hon. Minister quoted a source and, as I said earlier, this issue of throwing the truth out of the door and people being unable to determine what the reality is, is something we should put an end to because it will do no good to this country at all.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President told this country that this Government had created more than 160,000 jobs. What did he base this information on? Where did he get the statistics? Further, in which sectors were these jobs created.

His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time expired.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: There is a season for everything.

Laughter

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MEDICAL PERSONNEL

533. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Health why there was low staffing of medical personnel in most rural health centres.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the country continues to face a critical shortage of medical personnel in most rural health centres due to a number of reasons, such as:

(a)    low output from training institutions, both public and private;

(b)    construction of new health facilities across the country, which has increased the demand for health workers;

(c)    inadequate funds allocated to the sector to cater for recruitment of health workers to address the variance between the total establishment of Government workers in the country and that of filled-up positions; and

(d)    inadequate funds allocated to the sector to provide for incentives for health workers in the hard-to-reach rural areas.

Sir, in order to address the above challenges, the Government has embarked on the following:

(a)    opened the Copperbelt University, School of Medicine, to offer medicine and dentistry;

(b)    encouraged private institutions to offer training of doctors and nurses;

(c)    increased funding to training institutions to produce more health workers;

(d)    increased the number of nurse tutors per intake; and

(e)    opened more Government training institutions to offer training for health workers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, do the health centres in rural areas have enough houses for staff?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the issue of staff housing is being addressed by the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned a number of challenges that the ministry is facing. He has also listed the interventions that the Government has made in order to mitigate the problems. What is the Government, specifically, doing to give incentives to the health workers in the remote areas of Zambia? I did not hear that.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, we already have in place the Zambia Worker Retention Scheme for hard-to-reach rural areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, there is a lot of brain drain going on in the Ministry of Health. A lot of personnel have migrated to other countries in search of better conditions. What is the Government doing to improve the situation and encourage workers to come back?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, when the PF Government came into power, it put in place conditions that have caused a number of workers who had gone abroad to come back. Various incentives, such as drugs and instruments to use in hospitals, have been made available. The Government has also improved the actual packages being given to the workers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker, the low staffing levels in our health centres is a national issue. What human resource strategic plan has the Government put in place to staff the 650 health centres whose construction has been planned for?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, we have answered that question several times. We are training community health assistants at the Ndola School of Nursing, some of whom have already graduated and will be manning the 650 health posts to be constructed.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, most of the measures that have been given to this House regarding the improvement in staffing levels were left in place by the previous Government. Further, we have not seen any appreciable increase in staffing levels, neither have we seen any new initiatives. The question which my colleague wants an answer to is: What extraordinary solutions or new plans does the Government have to mitigate this vexing problem that continues to haunt the health sector?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, I think, it is clear that, firstly, the two additional medical schools that I mentioned were not available in the past. So, this was not left by the previous administration at all. Secondly, there are incentives that have been put in place to attract even those who are working abroad. I think, this has been elaborate enough.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Health is an hon. Member of Parliament under the MMD, but serving under the PF Government. I would like to find out whether there is a difference, in terms of the policies on the enhancement of health in this country, between his party, the MMD, and the PF and, if so, which one does he think is better?

Laughter

Dr Kasonde rose.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: (pointing at Hon. Dr Chikusu) No, him!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I thank my brother for raising this issue about the policies of the two parties and inquiring on which one is better.

Sir, it has been customary in our country not to ask the Government which policies are better, but to ask the population to go to the polling stations and express their opinions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: It would, therefore, appear evident to me that those who went to the polling stations in 2011 and yesterday …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: … were of the opinion that the better policy was that of the PF.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister, who twice referred to staff coming back to Zambia, is also MMD hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba.

Hon. Opposition Member: Double tobela.

Laughter

Dr Kazonga: If possible, could the ministry quantify the number of staff coming back to Zambia so that we appreciate that what he said is correct.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Vubwi, who is an eminent statistician, for the question. Perhaps, we should remind him that, when we come to statistical accuracy, it is best to present a question that is adequately researched. I do not think that it is fair for us to give figures without adequate notice to do appropriate research.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

TEACHER TRANSFERS

534. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education what disciplinary action the ministry had taken against teachers who were transferred to other stations in 2011, but refused to move.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Professor Willombe): Mr Speaker, unless there are other extenuating circumstances, no public worker is expected to object to being transferred, as this is part of the conditions and terms of service, as per Chapter 229 of the Conditions of Service.

Sir, if such teachers are reported, they shall be considered to have misconducted themselves as per terms and be subjected to the Public Service Disciplinary Procedure Code, No. 9(a)(i) and (ii).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, union leaders of the Zambia National Union of Teachers (ZNUT), Secondary School Teachers Union of Zambia (SESTUZ) and Basic Education Teachers Union of Zambia (BETUZ) are supposed to be sitting members of the committees at the offices of the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBSs), such as the proMotions, transfers and disciplinary committees. However, teachers in the unions representing teachers are marginalised in most districts. What steps does the hon. Minister intend to take with the view of including these teachers’ representatives in the committees to avoid grievances and friction in the districts, where we have many teachers?

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, I will attempt to answer Hon. Chisala’s question, although it is unrelated to his original question. We have worked with the teachers’ unions very well, and they are a constituency we need to preserve.

Sir, the disciplinary procedure that Hon. Professor Willombe mentioned under Code No. 9(a)(i) and (ii) stipulates who sits on the disciplinary committee at all levels. If they were not clear, the Teaching Profession Bill, which this House considered and passed, will specifically address that question. Under the new Act, our stakeholders, such as the teachers’ unions, will have representatives in the committees at every level, be they disciplinary, transfer, proMotion or appointments committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, Hon. Chisala wanted to know what disciplinary measures were taken. From the hon. Deputy Minister’s answer, it seems that there was no teacher, throughout the country, who refused to be transferred. Is that the correct position?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, that is the correct position. If it were not, the hon. Deputy Minister would have said so.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

CHIEFTAINESS KANYEMBO’S AND CHIEF NSHIMBA’S PALACES

535. Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge) asked the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs when the Government would construct palaces for Chieftainess Kanyembo and Chief Nshimba of Nchelenge District.

The Deputy Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mrs Kawandami): Mr Speaker, we have tried to answer this question on the Floor of this House before. The construction and rehabilitation of chiefs’ palaces will commence this year, 2013. There is a provision amounting to KR11,215,500 in the Budget for that project.

In this regard, the ministry is, currently, studying the plans for the palaces designed by the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

MOTIONS

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20, 21(1), if necessary, and 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.

Mr Speaker, the current meeting of the House commenced on Tuesday, 19th February, 2013 and, as of today, Friday, 15th March, 2013, the House has been sitting for nineteen days. This meeting is one of the shortest in our Parliamentary Calendar.

Sir, during this meeting, hon. Members asked hon. Ministers 260 Questions for Oral and Written Answer. The House also debated a Motion to adopt a Parliamentary Select Committee Report on the Ratification of the Secretary to the Cabinet. In addition, eleven ministerial statements were presented to the House to explain the Government’s position on various matters of national interest, and fifteen annual reports from Government and Quasi-Government institutions were laid on the Table of the House. Further, the House considered and passed six Government Bills.

Sir, in the course of the sitting, the House welcomed two new hon. Members of Parliament, following by-elections in Mpongwe and Livingstone Central constituencies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, although this meeting was relatively short, a lot of business was transacted, and I am happy to note that all the tasks that were presented before the House have been successfully accomplished. I must congratulate all hon. Members of the House for a job well done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Sir, in recognising the successful completion of the business set for this legislative meeting of the House, allow me to express my profound gratitude to all hon. Members for their co-operation, dedication to duty and constructive and invaluable contributions. Having worked so hard, it is important that the House now takes a break to enable hon. Members to attend to other equally important duties outside the House, particularly in their constituencies.

Mr Speaker, the harvest season is approaching. It is, therefore, important that hon. Members use the recess to supplement or complement Government efforts in ensuring that all the produce is harvested and safely stored to ensure food security in the country. I must point out here that, this year, the harvest has been threatened by several factors, and that it is important that we secure our food requirements for, at least, a year as soon as the crop is ready for harvesting because the demand from our neighbouring countries is still extremely high. There are countries around us that are offering nearly US$400 per tonne of Zambian maize, and we need to be very cautious that we do not end up having to import from Brazil or somewhere else.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members are urged to use the recess to identify areas that may record poor yields and require relief food. Please, do not hesitate to advise the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in my office of any such areas.

Sir, hon. Members will recall that, during the planting season, maize fields in a number of districts were attacked by army worms and, although the Government did its best to ameliorate the situation, particularly, by delivering replacement early-maturing seed, I am aware that there are other areas where the damage was too much to be adequately remedied. In the same vein, hon. Members should gather information on public infrastructure that might have been damaged by rains and bring it to the attention of Government for appropriate response. We know about the Mumbwa and Kalomo dams but, please, ensure that anything that requires attention is brought to the attention of the DMMU.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I commend you, the hon. Deputy Speaker and the hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the House most sincerely for the efficient and impartial manner in which you presided over the Business of the House. Similarly, I thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the excellent service they continue to render this House. May I also take this opportunity to express my gratitude to hon. Members, hon. Ministers, hon. Deputy Ministers and staff from the Office of the Vice-President and other Government ministries for the support and assistance they provided throughout the meeting.

Mr Speaker, let me now take this opportunity to wish all hon. Members and the entire nation a happy Easter.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for affording me the opportunity to debate the Motion, which I support wholeheartedly.

Mr Speaker, before I proceed with my debate, let me point out that every adjournment day is our day, as hon. Members of Parliament. This is the day when we are supposed to reflect on our operations and where our country is heading. This is the day when we can sit in the Chamber, sometimes, until the following day, depending on what we have to say. This is, indeed, our day.

Mr Speaker, when we were adjourning, last year, some of our colleagues were not in the House and we were worried but, on inquiry, we were told that they were recuperating from the leadership position that they had taken in the national campaign on circumcision. That was a very important and brave move to take, …

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: … and we hope that our colleagues have fully recuperated and that the decision is bearing fruit.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as we adjourn and go back to our respective constituencies, we are extremely disappointed that the legislative session of Parliament takes place once in a year and, as hon. Members of Parliament, we expect the Executive to give us Bills for debate, but this has not been the case. These are, of course, Bills that should occupy us while we are here. However, in that regard, this session has been disappointing. If anything, it has been extremely disgraceful because, over the years, the situation has been very different.

Sir, in 2003, we had a three-week session of legislation and there were sixteen Bills presented to the House; in 2004, we had a three-week session and we had fourteen Bills debated; in 2005, there were four weeks and we had twenty-nine Bills debated; in 2006, we had two weeks of legislation and seventeen Bills were presented; in 2007, we had a five-week session and twenty-three Bills were presented; in 2008, we had a five-week session and twenty Bills were debated; in 2010, we had a four-week session and thirty-eight Bills were presented; in 2011, we had a four-week session and forty-seven …

Hon. Member: Aah!

Professor Lungwangwa: … Bills were presented; and, last year, we had a four-week session and sixteen Bills were that were, of course, left by the MMD, were presented.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, this one was a four-week session, but only six Bills …

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Professor Lungwangwa: … were brought to this House, two of which had been initiated by the MMD.

Mr Speaker, this is extremely disappointing because, in any Parliamentary session, especially in the Commonwealth, we Judge the Executive by the number of Bills it brngs to the House for debate. That is a measure of the seriousness with which the Executive takes issues of governance. Having been an hon. Minister in two ministries, I know that what differentiates an hon. Deputy Minister from a Cabinet Minister is the ability to initiate Bills and legislate because, when you are doing that, you are, actually, scratching the surface of governance and beginning to understand what governance is, especially in a democracy. This is because, in a democracy, it is the Government of the people, by the people and for the people. Further, if, as a Cabinet Minister, you initiate legislation, you begin to appreciate the various stakeholders in your ministry and sector. You, later, begin to interact with them and, eventually, understand and appreciate what the people want, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Teach them.

Professor Lungwangwa: … and how they want to be governed. You cannot sit there, as an hon. Minister, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Look at them.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: … and spend all your time without bringing a Bill to the House. If you do that, you are not any better than a cadre on the street.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Therefore, we expect our colleagues to work hard. It is through the Bills that they introduce that the intellectual ability of an hon. Minister is assessed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: An hon. Minister who is not able to bring a Bill to the House does not have the intellectual capacity to hold the portfolio.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: When you bring a Bill to this House, you begin to appreciate the import of being an hon. Minister and how different you are from a Back Bencher like an hon. Deputy Minister, who just shouts …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … and can spend the whole time in the constituency campaigning.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: That is extremely disastrous.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let us have some order, please.

Professor Lungwangwa: … the Bills …

Mr Bwalya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. I appreciate and usually follow the debates from the hon. Member on the Floor, who usually speaks very well and in an academic manner. However, is he in order to refer to the Back Bench, to which I belong, as one that just shouts …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I cannot follow.

Mr Bwalya: … in this House and that it does not contribute effectively? Is he in order?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Whether one is an hon. Deputy Minister or simply a Back Bencher, I do not think that there is any hon. Member who simply shouts, as suggested by the hon. Member for Nalikwanda Constituency.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Therefore, my ruling is that, to that extent, the hon. Member for Nalikwanda Constituency is, certainly, out of order.

Continue, hon. Member for Nalikwanda.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we are going back to our respective constituencies extremely disappointed. The reason our colleagues in the Executive are not bringing Bills to the House is that they spend their time elsewhere.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Professor Lungwangwa: They spend their time campaigning during by-elections. How can an hon. Minister or hon. Deputy Minister spend the entire legislative session in a constituency when we are debating Bills here? That is not how it ought to be.

Mr Speaker, when you begin to bring Bills to the House, you even appreciate what your predecessors were able to do and the laws that they were able to make. That is what governance is all about. Therefore, we would like our colleagues to be more serious so that, in the next legislative session, we can have Bills brought to the House that should keep the various Committees that you appoint busy. That is very important for the development of this nation.

Mr Speaker, another aspect that I should reflect on is that of intellectual bankruptcy in our political leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there is a dangerous growing tendency in our country whereby people think that there is something called the ‘party and its Government.’ There is no such thing. The party in power is only a party in the Government. It does not own the Government. The Government is owned by the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Professor Lungwangwa: It is for the people by the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Professor Lungwangwa: As the party in the Government, you are only there to render a service. However, what has happened in our country is that even on our side, here, we refer to the Executive as the Government.

Hon. Opposition Member: Can you imagine.

Professor Lungwangwa: The Executive is not the Government. The Government is all of us in this House. We are representatives of the people, who own the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: It is the Government of the people, by the people and for the people. When you are privileged to be in the Executive, you are there as part of the Government.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the intellectual bankruptcy that is cropping up in this country is the assumption …

Hon. Opposition Member: In the PF.

Professor Lungwangwa: … that you can only …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hold on for just a moment, hon. Member for Nalikwanda.

Hon. Members, let us maintain order and dignity. I do not have to remind you of the obvious. You may be excited by what the hon. Member for Nalikwanda is saying, but that does not warrant your reaction in that fashion. If you want to contribute to the debate, please, indicate and I will give you an opportunity. You do not debate whilst you are seated. This is the same issue that the hon. Member for Nalikwanda is raising in another form, showing inadequacies in how we debate.

The hon. Member may continue.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your protection.

Mr Speaker, the danger of intellectual bankruptcy in political leadership is evidenced when people begin to assume that development will only take place when one is in the ruling party. This is intellectual bankruptcy …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … because the Ruling Party does not own the resources of this country. They belong to the people, and every inch of this country desires to be developed. Any ordinary hon. Member of the House who believes that they can only take development to their constituencies when they work with the party in the Government are misguided and do not know what they were elected for. That is intellectual bankruptcy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, it is very clear that those who are intellectually bankrupt are, to a large extent, not trusted by their people …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … because they mess up things where they come from and hope that they will be trusted where they are now perching.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Professor Lungwangwa: The fact is that they will never be trusted.

Mr Speaker, when you destroy your village, family …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Indeed, the offices we occupy are public and we all have to serve our time. When our time to go comes, we should not be bitter.

Hon. Opposition Members: What is your point of order?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Nalikwanda referred to what he calls ‘intellectual bankruptcy’ in politics. In this country, we have had political transitions. Members have moved from the United National Independence Party (UNIP) to the MMD and from the MMD to the PF.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Deputy Minister resume his seat for a moment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Point of order!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us be patient. You allowed the hon. Member for Nalikwanda to make his point so let the hon. Deputy Minister make his point as well.

The hon. Minister may proceed.

Mr Kampyongo: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker, we have had political transitions in this country and that has been looked at as freedom of movement in a democracy. Is the hon. Member, therefore, in order to refer to that freedom of movement and association of citizens as ‘intellectual bankruptcy’?

Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I think that the point simply turns around the term ‘intellectual bankruptcy’. The term, probably, does not sit well with the hon. Member who raised the point of order.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: However, as I understand it, the hon. Member is merely referring to the fact that there could be intellectual shortcomings …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … in the way we are conducting things; nothing more, nothing less.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: When business was suspended, the House was considering the Motion moved by His Honour the Vice-President that Standing Orders number 20, 21(i), if necessary, and 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom, and that, on such completion, the House adjourns sine die, and the hon. Member for Nalikwanda was speaking. May he continue.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, a day like this is ours for reflection and recapitulation. There is no bitterness. We are merely the guardians of our time.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the political environment we live in, which has been constructed by ourselves, is a platform. Some come and take the stage and others leave. There should not be any bitterness at all. Those who say that there are people who are politically bitter are intellectually bankrupt.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, you have guided the House that the Motion on the Floor is a very clear and straightforward one.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member make his point.

Mr Mwila: It proposes to suspend the Standing Orders so that we finish all the business on the Order Paper. Is the hon. Member in order to digress from the Motion on the Floor in his debate?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, we should approach these issues with due earnestness. You may have a point to make but, depending on how it is broached, and despite the denials, it might assume a certain complexion that might not be conducive to conducting business in the House. I am very slow to begin to unnecessarily prescribe and proscribe vocabulary but, please, let us debate with calmness, reasonableness and objectivity. I want to give everybody the freedom to express themselves because it is very important. After all, you are all representatives of the dear people of Zambia. Let us, therefore, exhibit – and I am slow to use this word, but I cannot find a suitable alternative – maturity.

The hon. Member for Nalikwanda may proceed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was talking about the importance of respecting one’s house.

Mr Speaker, even in the village, a person does not destroy his/her village, settle elsewhere and expect that people will be pleased with the derogative remarks he or she used to despise his own village, parents or family. Doing that does not earn anyone trust.  This goes for politics as well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: For example, if one leaves their party to join another, they should not expect to be trusted. That person might be given a car with a flag and a driver, but the driver might be spying on them. They may be given a secretary in the office, but that secretary might be spying on them because they are not trusted. One simply carves for themselves a political legacy of being untrustworthy. This is, exactly, the crisis that we are in now, which is that of intellectual bankruptcy in the political leadership of our country.

Mr Speaker, another dimension of intellectual bankruptcy is when somebody in leadership stands on a campaign platform and tells the electorate that development will never go to them if they do not work with the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: That is because anybody who is in the Executive has the mandate and responsibility to …

Mrs Mwamba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. The hon. Member debating was, not so long ago, one of the hon. Ministers in a Government that poached many hon. Members of Parliament from other political parties and made them hon. Ministers during its reign. Those poached included Hon. Chimbaka, the last they poached from the PF. Is he in order to suggest, today, that that act, which they also practised, is intellectual bankruptcy when they considered it a very good strategy then?

I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker, because he is just wasting our time.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda, you are being invited to engage in introspection as you debate that point.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Engaging in introspection, one can say that Hon. Chimbaka …

Sorry, he is not in the House.

Mr Speaker: Let us not debate people who are not here.

Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Excuse me, Professor Lungwangwa. Let us confine ourselves to issues and to the Motion.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: You may continue, please.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to continue. Any political leader who stands on a political platform and tells the people of Zambia, in any part of this country, that development will never go to them unless they work with the party in power is doing something that is totally unacceptable.

Professor Lungwangwa: The responsibility of any member of the Executive is to take development to all parts of this country. Nobody in leadership …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I rarely stand on points of order, but I have to, this time.

Sir, when the hon. Member now on the Floor was the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, he used his position to construct six primary schools in one constituency and this House raised points of order against his poor governance and leadership.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: However, today, he wants to mislead the people by saying that it does not pay to belong to the party in the Government. Is he in order to do that?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, we have a very specific Motion before us. Let us not derail ourselves. I know that it is tempting to bring in all sorts of issues here, but let us confine ourselves to our business. I do not want to be prescriptive because we have been in this House long enough to know what this Motion entails.

Please, wind up your debate, hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as Ministry of Education then, we had the task of getting rid of ninety schools that were made of pole and mud throughout the country and we did just that.

Mrs Masebo: In your constituency!

Professor Lungwangwa: By 2011, those ninety pre-Independence schools were reconstructed. Of course, it so happened that six of them were in Nalikwanda, but that is irrelevant.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Sir, the point is that there is no political leader who believes in the principles of integrity and stands up to tell the people that development will never go to them if they do not work with the party in the Government. That is unacceptable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we are the guardians of our time, to use Hon. Chipungu’s …

Professor Luo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, thank you. As you know, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Luo: … I rarely rise on points of order but, today, I have been forced to do so, especially on a fellow professor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, the title of ‘Professor’ is renowned worldwide and not easy to get.

Hon. Opposition Members: What is your point of order?

Professor Luo: Is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order, first of all, not to understand your guidance that he should stick to the Motion on the Table and, secondly, to continue waffling about the same things, …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: … thereby, putting the title of professor, which I also hold, in disrepute?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushanga: Professor to professor!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

There is the risk that, at the rate we are going, we will just be debating ourselves. This is the apex of our national politics and there are expectations out there. As we sit here, people are both watching and listening. We need to collectively project a much more positive image of ourselves than we are doing. I do not want to go to the area that Hon. Professor Luo has referred to. Suffice it to say that I am also an academician. However, I will end there …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … because we will start debating ourselves.

There is also repetition. I know that you have the facility of time here and you are being checked, but avoid repetition. You may not realise that you are repeating yourself.

Please, wind up.

Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Indeed, I take your advice that we do not debate ourselves.

Sir, there is no way I can stand in this House and raise matters of a professional nature against a fellow hon. Member.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: When here, we transcend …

Mr Speaker: I have already made the ruling that we should not debate ourselves.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, this nation belongs to all of us, and we have the challenge of enhancing democracy and taking development to all our people. It is the responsibility of those who manage the resources of this country to take development far and wide. There should not be any threat at all from anybody that, if some people do not work with the party in the Government, then, their areas will not be developed. That is totally unacceptable and against the tenets of democracy. In fact, it is a dictatorial and totalitarian way of managing the affairs of the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this Motion. In the first instance, I would like to say I support the Motion and that it is good enough to discuss it today.

Sir, I only have four points to raise and I will be very brief in my debate. The first is the failure of hon. Ministers to anticipate the follow-up questions they were asked by hon. Members of Parliament, particularly of the Opposition. In this sitting of Parliament, as well as the previous one, we have noted, with sadness, how hon. Ministers fail to answer questions put to them by simply saying the questions were new. That was because the hon. Ministers did not anticipate those questions from the Opposition hon. Members. We hope that the trend will stop, as it implies that the intellectual bankruptcy that Hon. Professor Lungwangwa talked about is real.

Sir, we hope that hon. Ministers will have a different approach to questions in the next sitting. His Honour the Vice-President has been in the Opposition before and knows what I am talking about. It is very embarrassing to see members of the Executive talking at random and hide their failure to answer questions by saying that a question is new.

Mr Speaker, secondly, I request this august House to ensure that there is adequate supply of mealie-meal across the country. In Solwezi, there are three different prices of mealie-meal as we speak. There is a price for the morning, another for the afternoon and yet another for the evening. You cannot run a country like that. This is because of the totalitarian Government that we currently have. It has imposed the KR50 price for mealie-meal countrywide. You do not expect the price of mealie-meal in Lusaka to be the same as in Chavuma. We expect this Government to ensure adequate and steady supplies of mealie-meal across the country. We do not want a situation in which Mpongwe, where a PF hon. Member of Parliament has just been elected, has no food because it is just not right. Let us ensure that these things we are talking about here are actualised into proper development for the people.

Sir, the third point is the delivery of inputs. I must state here that the management of that programme by the PF Government has been a disaster. Two weeks ago, I was in Solwezi and found that there was no D-Compound Fertiliser, and the people asked me what they would eat because their crops would go to waste, as it was already flowering, but they did not have fertiliser. That is what I mean when I say it is a disaster, and I thank the Government because the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock acknowledged this fact. What we need is an improvement in this area. As we go on recess, we need to plan better so that this does not happen again.

Mr Speaker, my last point is that the MMD Government, to which I belonged, left a very important legacy of bumper harvests for two consecutive farming seasons.

Hon. MMD Member: Bauze! It is three.

Mr Mwanza: Yes, three.

Sir, this is an important observation that the PF Executive should take note of. The people of Zambia will not excuse it if it repeatedly comes here and informs the nation that our constituencies have no mealie-meal. It is important, as we go on recess, to ensure that the situation surrounding the distribution of inputs is corrected.

Sir, let us all go and visit our constituencies, talk to the electorate and assure them that, this time around, they will be supplied with inputs in good time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: That is a very familiar way of debating a Motion. Very familiar.

Laughter

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this Motion. Firstly, I would like to say that I support it. Secondly, I would also like to say we are very grateful that we have been able to sit, as hon. Members of Parliament, to debate a number of issues that have come before this august House.

Sir, my debate is purely to ask the Executive and the hon. Members here where Zambia is heading. His Honour the Vice-President said that, as we go on recess, today, it is necessary that we reflect on a number of areas and go and speak to our people in our constituencies. Yes, our people will ask us where Zambia is heading and it will be necessary for us to answer those questions.

Sir, there have been a number of issues that have been raised on the Floor of this House. For instance, the rehabilitation works on the Landless Corner/Mumbwa Road in my constituency. I have asked more than six questions to the Executive so each hon. Minister who has been in charge of the road sector could provide a response and, every time, we have had the assurance that the road would be repaired and tarred, but this has not been done. Where are we going?

Sir, when the Executive says that a particular thing will be done, we believe that it will be done. However, for two years now, this promise has not been honoured. The contract for works on the road was cancelled and the contractor took the Government to court and won the case. The company, which had been paid K11.5 billion to tar the road, will now be paid K14.5 billion by the Government as compensation for the cancelled contract. This is tax payers’ money that will be wasted. Where are we taking Zambia?

Mr Speaker, we also have a problem with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). In my constituency, the CDF was disbursed just before Christmas in December, 2012. So, it became very difficult for people to administer the funds. It is important that all the constituencies receive the CDF in time for the people to use it to improve their livelihoods.

Sir, if you recall, I rose on the Floor of this House when the PF took over power and spoke about how many by-elections the Zambian people would go through. I was told, then, that the cases were before the courts of law and that I was to wait until they were disposed of. Many of them have now been disposed of. We are spending tax payers’ money on unnecessary by-elections all the time. These huge sums of money that we are spending on by-elections will have a negative impact on our economy and the lives of our people. Although the Ruling Party promised people more money in their pockets, that is not going to happen because we are spending money on wrong things. Whilst still on the subject of elections, I would like to point out that the MMD brought democracy to this nation.

Interruptions

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Indeed, the people of Zambia brought democracy to this country through a vehicle called the MMD. However, we see our democracy, which is still fragile, being threatened. I will tell the hecklers why I say so.

Sir, firstly, it is okay for the Ruling Party to rejoice in winning so many elections. However, the fact of the matter is that it is not clear whether it is winning the elections because the people are choosing the leaders they want or being forced to vote for some leaders. For example, we just had a by-election in Livingstone, during which a number of people were allowed to campaign while the leaders of one political party were arrested and locked up on trumped-up charges whilst another party, the PF, continued campaigning. That gave an unfair advantage to the PF and enabled it to win that election. Therefore, why is the Ruling Party rejoicing that it won the Livingstone seat when it did not do so fairly? This is a hollow victory that our colleagues are rejoicing over.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, there are many hollow victories. We saw it in Mufumbwe and Mpongwe. In Mpongwe, the village and house of the candidate for the United Party for National Development (UPND) …

Col Kaunda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. However, before I allow it, I wish to advise you, hon. Member for Keembe, to, please, avoid debating individuals.

Col Kaunda: Sir, is the hon. Member debating in order to mislead the nation that the PF won elections because some members of UPND were arrested? The MMD was also there, but it did not win the election.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Well, let us not engage in speculation.

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I speak for my country. For forty-five years of my prime time, I have worked for this country. If my …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Please, let us restrain ourselves so that we can make progress. You know, even as you conduct yourselves in that fashion, that it is not acceptable, but you want to constantly engage the Speaker to restrain you. We have a lot of work ahead of us.

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I would like to see a situation in which democracy is not defrauded in this wonderful country, Zambia. Elections should not be defrauded for the purpose of people staying in power. We should allow the people of Zambia to decide whom they want to rule over them.

Mr Speaker, what is happening now is that there is an office for continuous voters’ registration in the Showgrounds. However, some people go there to change their voter’s cards in order to vote in elections like those we had in Livingstone, Mufumbwe and Mpongwe. Is it not proper that we allow the people in Mufumbwe and Mpongwe to make their own decisions, rather than for people from Lusaka to vote in those elections? Is the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) being used to rig elections? We want to have a situation …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Keembe in order to suggest that the people who voted in Mpongwe are new voters when, in fact, he does not even know where Mpongwe is?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I have already ruled that we should not engage in speculation.

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, it is important to understand that the electoral process is important for democracy in Zambia and everybody must be happy to see to it that there is transparency in what we do. The Executive should help this country to move in that direction.

Mr Speaker, let move to an area that is close to my heart, and that is food security in the country. His Honour the Vice-President already spoke about this matter. We have a disaster, this year, in terms of food security. As I speak, people in my constituency have no food and their roads are closed off because of the rains, but the PF Government has done nothing at all. There are people who will be hungry, yet we are talking about the Government selling maize to Tanzania and other neighbouring countries. Why do we not look after our people first? People are queuing up to buy mealie-meal because it is not available in many parts of the country.

Mr Speaker, as we rise sine die, today, it is important to reflect upon these issues. We need to go out there and explain to our people why there is no mealie-meal in the shops. We should go and tell them that the PF, which promised many things, is failing to deliver on those promises, especially in the agricultural sector. It is, therefore, important that we put the agricultural sector in order. During the twenty years of the MMD rule, we never had people queuing to buy mealie-meal or shortages of maize grain. Our people have had mealie-meal and grain in surplus. Now, we see diminishing returns.

Mr Speaker, the other matter I want to speak about is education. We have a wonderful hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, my brother, who has worked very hard. However, this year’s results in all grades are, probably, the poorest that we have ever had in this country. Let us reflect on why this is so because the future of our country depends on education. Unless we can answer the question of why so many of our children failed and cannot get places in schools, we will continue having two problems: where to take the school dropouts and finding out what is happening in the education sector?

Dr Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the subject of education is very important to the country. Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to speculate on such an important issue as education? The records do not show that there has generally been poor performance at Grades 7, 9 and 12 levels. There is no marked difference, over the past few years. Is he in order to dwell on speculations?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: It looks like it will now be a chorus. I have said before, that we should avoid speculation in our debate. We are not permitted to speculate.

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, my statement is based on what the hon. Minister, himself, announced to the nation. When we raise these issues, it is important that hon. Members of the Executive respond to our concerns rather than raise points of order. They have time to debate. This is the only chance to raise some of these concerns and that is why we are suspending the Standing Orders.

Mr Speaker, as I wind up, let me reflect on how Zambia is going to perform economically because it seems that we are spending our resources unwisely. If that continues, our economy will start performing badly. There are many decisions that have been made. We thank the President for making decisions for all the districts and provinces, but it would have been better to tie resources to the districts and provinces so as to allow the economy to support the vision of the President.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Motion to suspend some of the Standing Orders to enable us to sit until we conclude the business of the day and, thereafter, adjourn sine die.

Mr Speaker, as I rise, I would like to make an earnest appeal to you, as our leader in this House, and to the House in general, to ensure that the sanctity of Parliament is protected. This is the last bastion of freedom that the people of Zambia can appeal to. The people of Zambia have been stating that the other institutions of the Government appear to be compromised and that the only recourse they have is to Parliament. As we debate, today, I would like all of us to reflect on the importance of ensuring that this august House, to which we are all proud to belong, is protected and we do justice to our people.

Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has advised us to go back to our constituencies and explain to our people our collective achievements and failures, in particular, the failures of those who have been given the mantle to govern us. As I go back to meet my constituents, I have a few issues that are very cardinal, which I will inform the people of Monze Central, in particular, and the Southern Province, in general. One very important issue is that of governance. When I get to Monze Central, as I address various meetings, I will advise my people that those who have pending cases should join the PF for their cases to be forgiven.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I will advise them that, as long as they belong to the Opposition, they will not be protected. I will advise them that, in this country, there are laws for the country, for those who belong to the Ruling Party and for those who belong to the Opposition. I will tell them that even we, as leaders, have noted, with concern, that, where two people commit a similar offence, for as long as one remains in an opposition political party, their case will be pursued everyday while the one for one who joins the Ruling Party and becomes an hon. Minister will melt. That is the governance obtaining in our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I will tell my people about the situation that prevailed in Livingstone. I will tell them that, yesterday, one of the hon. Ministers slapped a police officer who was supervising elections, but nothing has been done because that hon. Minister is above the law. I will tell them that PF party cadres in Livingstone have the impunity to abuse police officers because they belong to the Ruling Party.

Mr Speaker, I advise my colleagues that the direction in which we are taking this country is very dangerous. We have been hearing of similar situations obtaining in one neighbouring country, where there is lawlessness. Members of the ruling party appear to be above the law and that is what is obtaining here. If we are not careful, those who do not belong to the Ruling Party will start taking the law in their own hands to defend themselves. We should not allow ourselves to degenerate to that level. When you were given the mantle and responsibility to rule this country, we expected you to protect every one of us because that is your responsibility. The people of Zambia are not supposed to kneel before you in order to be protected. That is your responsibility. When there is anarchy, there is no development that can take place. When the oligarchy takes the realms of power, no democracy takes place.

We are also aware, Mr Speaker, that, apart from the Ruling Party, there is the fourth arm of the Government that is invisibly directing this Government to do some things that are wrong.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Do not allow that. One day, you will pay the price. Zambians are watching and listening.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am being reminded by my colleague, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, that those who make noises in Parliament after you have rendered advice are intellectually bankrupt.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: They are not able to rise to debate and refute what I am saying.

Dr Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member who is on the Floor is debating very well, but I want to ask him whether avoiding to mention some formula that is being used by his party is not a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Monze Central, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you. I recall, when I was at the University of Zambia (UNZA), as a student and campaign manager for someone who became …

Mr Mwamba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, is my brother, Hon. Mwiimbu, in order to mislead the nation by saying that an hon. Minister slapped a police officer in Livingstone without evidence?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: You see, the difficulty with these points of order is that you want me to rule on whether that information is factually correct, yet I was here, in Lusaka.

On a serious note, we have a lot of work ahead. I am mindful that we have suspended our Standing Orders. Nonetheless, let us proceed with some measure of efficiency and effectiveness in our debates.

The hon. Member for Monze Central may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for guiding and protecting me. I was about to name the hon. Minister, but I will not.

Mr Speaker, we heard from my learned friend, the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, that the Government has been poaching hon. Members of the Opposition to join the Ruling Party. I did not realise that that is what is being done. However, it has been confirmed on the Floor of this House.

Sir, once one is poached, they get eaten.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: If you go into the bush and poach bush meat, the intention is to either eat or sell it.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I have realised that our colleagues have been poached and eaten, and will never be part of us.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I also want to inform this august House and remind my colleagues on your right that, barely two years ago, together, we used to complain about the MMD’s appointment of hon. Members of the Opposition into the Government. We used to say that the intention of the MMD was to destroy the Opposition, thereby, destroying democracy. Alas, barely two years later, our colleagues are doing the same thing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They have decided to ‘poach,’ using their own words, …

Hon. UPND Member: And eat.

Mr Mwiimbu: … and eat four hon. Members of the UPND and eleven from the MMD.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I stand without fear of any contradiction, to say that a similar situation obtained in Malawi. When the Malawians realised that the hon. Members of Parliament of the Opposition were being poached and eaten, they, the civil society, the churches and the political parties, took the matter to court. It went to the Supreme Court which, rightly, indicated that those who were poached and eaten had crossed the Floor …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and lost their seats.

Mr E. C. Lungu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament debating is a lawyer. I would like to seek your serious guidance on whether it is in order for him to insist that the Malawian political scenario is conversant with poaching when the two countries are governed by different Constitutions. Zambia has a totally different Constitution, and there is no basis on which the hon. Member should begin to compare the two countries.

I seek your serious ruling on whether he is in order.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Monze Central, please, take into account the point that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has made, to the effect that we may be comparing two different constitutional orders. I do not want us to go into the details. However, take that into account.

Mr Mwiimbu: Very gladly, Mr Speaker, and I would like to educate my colleague that the particular article that talks about the appointment of hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition is on all fours with what is obtaining in Zambia, with respect to Malawi’s Constitution. There is no difference.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the other issue that I would like my colleagues to take note of is the issue that has been raised by my colleagues, pertaining to the shortages of our staple food. I recall that, in 1991, under the obnoxious One-Party State, when there were serious shortages of mealie-meal, the people of Zambia rose and demanded change. If our colleagues are not careful, they will find themselves in a similar situation. ‘Meal meal’ is a staple food …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mealie-meal is the staple food of this country. Therefore, it is a security matter. When there is a shortage of the staple food, the security of the country gets compromised. There is no way we can allow a situation in which our dear mothers queue up for mealie-meal for more than four days. We should not allow that. We should find a way of addressing this serious problem. If you are not careful, you will pay a high price.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that I would like to address is that on which we have been advised by the hon. Minister of Gender and Child Development, and the other honourable ladies in the House, which is that we talk about issues of gender-based violence as we go back to our various constituencies. I promise to do that. However, I also promise to inform the people of Zambia that gender-based violence is not always physical. It is also eMotional. It is eMotional when you realise that there are certain leaders who have grabbed husbands from other women and …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Monze Central, let us be judicious in our selection of issues and subjects. This is an august House.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am not raising an issue with anybody here. I am just saying that when we are leaders, we should also be in the leadership of ensuring that we do what we preach. That is all I am saying.

Mr Speaker: I expected you to end there.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, on that particular one, …

Mr Speaker: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … I will end because they know themselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr M. H. Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, you have guided the House on that issue. Is the hon. Member debating in order to bring it up when we …

Hon. Opposition Members: Which issue?

Mr M. H. Malama: The issue on which you guided the House …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Deputy Minister, the issue has been settled by the Hon. Mr Speaker, and he has circumscribed the limit of the debate, which the hon. Member on the Floor has accepted to limit himself to. Going by what he has said, so far, I expect him to move on and begin winding up his debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I abided by your direction and will move on. The other issue I would like to bring to your attention, which concerns, in particular, us, who come from the Southern Province, is the road that leads to Mazabuka from Makeni. That road has become a death trap. A number of our people have found themselves in accidents almost every day, and we are losing lives. I would like to implore the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to ensure that remedial measures are taken so that we do not lose any more lives.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I would like to talk about Livingstone. I have been hearing the leadership of the PF and the Government saying that the country is ready for the World Tourism Organisation General Assembly (WTO-GA) Conference in Livingstone. For the last one month, most of us have been campaigning in Livingstone. Compared with Zimbabwe, we, as Zambians, are not ready for this conference. The roads in Livingstone are not being worked on and we only have four months before the conference takes place. We do not have a conference venue; the construction has not started. I do not know when it will be constructed in Livingstone. Maybe, the conference will be held in Maramba Stadium.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are proudly announcing to the nation that we are ready, …

Mr Mulenga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am compelled to rise on this point of order, having heard the debate that is going on in the House. The Motion is straightforward. It seeks that this House suspends Standing Orders (20) and (21) for us to complete the Business in the House. Is my colleague who was debating in order to continue debating in a cross-country manner by talking about Livingstone, Tanzania and Malawi when the Motion is straightforward? It just requires us to say that we agree or disagree.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, is he in order to debate in the manner that he is debating?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Indeed, on face value, the Motion is straightforward. There is no doubt about it. It does not require any demonstration. However, there is also a certain latitude that has been allowed for hon. Members to respond to some of the concerns raised, for instance, by His Honour the Vice-President, especially those of a development, political or governance  nature. It is, really, left to hon. Members to make appropriate determinations, bearing in mind the economy of time. This Motion needs to be debated to a particular point after which it will lapse. Please, hon. Member for Monze Central, wind up your debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, for the benefit of my colleague, if he does not know …

Mr Chisanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisanga: Mr Speaker, this is getting out of hand. Many times, you have guided this House that, when we debate, we should raise issues and the Executive should listen, take notes and respond at a given time. Is the Executive in order to respond through points of order? Is the Executive in order to show that its Back Benchers cannot make points of order and are, therefore, useless?

Laughter

Mr Chisanga: Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The point of order is misplaced. I assume that you wanted to take care of the fatigue that has engulfed the House so that we have some laughter.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the issue of our hosting the WTO-GA Conference is a national issue that is important to all of us. We want to host an international conference that will be successful so that we can be proud. It will be for the benefit of all of us to ensure that the conference succeeds. If omissions occur, we should be able to point them out and that is what I am doing. There is almost nothing taking place in Livingstone. The only notable thing I saw was the dance rehearsal on television.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, in terms of infrastructure development, there is nothing that has been done. I have indicated that the conference hall has not been constructed, yet we have only four or five months before the conference.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you are now repeating yourself.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, yes, it is a question of emphasis. We, and the people of the Southern Province, especially, were informed that the PF Government would provide the requisite vaccines to protect our animals from diseases. Unfortunately, to date, nothing tangible has been done. A number of our cattle and other domestic animals have been dying and no visible assistance has been given to our people. We are calling upon the hon. Minister responsible for Agriculture and Livestock to ensure that something is done.

Mr Speaker, last but not the least, we were all promised that industrial clusters would be set up in our various districts. However, I doubt if there is any constituency where a cluster has been established. Therefore, I appeal to my dear brother who has taken over the issue of clusters to ensure that they are set up, as promised. We do not want talk-shops.

Sir, I also hope that, when these clusters are put in place, milling companies will be among them. It appears that these clusters are phantoms that have vanished with the hon. Minister who promised them.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I hope that the issue of clusters will be followed through.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The last hon. Member to speaker on the left will be the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity. I must hasten to say that this marks the second day that I have attended Parliament since this sitting begun, for obvious reasons that the country and the world at large may understand.

Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I think that I must bring out one or two sentiments before the House. I will be going back to my constituency in order to explain to the electorate about the ordeal that saw me land in prison.

Sir, it is true that whatever goes up must come down. That is a principle of physics, which should be a timely reminder to our friends in the Executive Wing of Government. As they sit on the saddle of power, it is always prudent for them to remind themselves that the only thing that is permanent about their situation is change. There will, definitely, come a time when they will have frustrated the people of this country enough for them to be voted out. Therefore, it is important for our colleagues to develop magnanimity and be able to stand divergent views because that is the democracy that we chose for ourselves.

Mr Speaker, we have seen the use of the police as a means to suppress opposing views. Opposing views are not painful, but simply there for you to look at and appreciate or reject without having to use the police to incapacitate people who are clearly there to assist you. Assistance can be taken or rejected.

Sir, going by the ordeal that saw me imprisoned for the last twenty-one days, there is an attempt to settle personal vendettas. That falls short of anybody who wants to be called a leader and went in the pre-colonial era in which anybody who wanted to assist you to run the Government – because we are all here for the people. There is no one who is here for themselves. If the people I represent feel I must bring certain sentiments to the attention of Government, I must do that without fear or favour.

Mr Speaker, it is painful, extremely painful, that our colleagues on your right can use their political muscle to intimidate the police to do wrong things. It is absolutely shameful. I have no difficulties with the Ruling Party collecting hon. Members from this side because these hon. Members have been collected with a free conscience. I do not think that they have been bundled and carried away. For that reason alone, I could not point a finger at His Honour the Vice-President and say, “Why are you stealing hon. Members from us?’’ I know that it takes two to tango. I could not point a finger …

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Members on your left have continued talking about their colleagues who are being appointed as hon. Deputy Ministers. It looks like His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, has violated the Constitution. Is the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central in order to state that His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia is stealing …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: … hon. Members from your left? I seek your serious ruling on this matter so that it is settled once and for all.

Hon. Opposition Members: He was supporting.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, I did not hear the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central say what you have quoted. I think he has made the point, fairly so, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: … that this movement, if I may expand, is as a result of freedom of association and conscience, to be more specific. I think, that is where he was going. He wanted to develop his thesis further, whatever it was, about that position.

Hon. Members, please, let us allow each other to express ourselves. It is difficult for me, as Speaker, to begin banning topics from being debated. It is beyond me and most inappropriate. These are all governance issues. Some of them are constitutional and others legal. Some are already being tested before the Courts of Law. Whether that is good or bad depends on which side of the divide you belong and all is debatable. Let us have free debate.

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much, once again. Maybe, I could take advantage of your ruling to ask the people of Zambia, from this moment on, to take heed and carefully scrutinise the people they elect to come to this august House.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: They must scrutinise their capacity to understand.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: They must scrutinise their calibres and ability, resilience, magnanimity and ability to understand what we are here for.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I think that it is important to repeat what I said: the hon. Members who have been recruited from this end allowed that to be done out of their own free will and in the exercise of their freedom of association. I do not have a moment to castigate anyone for having done what they did because it is in the exercise of their free will. They are free to do that and that is not strange. It started happening even during the rule of the late President, Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest peace. People were coerced; they agreed and were told on radio stations that, in some particular party, there were …

Mr Masumba: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor, who calls me Fally Ipupa Masumba, in order to cry and shed tears, without informing this august House why he is doing that? Is it because they have lost the election in Livingstone?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I have, actually, looked very hard, but could not see anybody shedding tears.

Please, proceed, Hon. Nkombo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I think that it is important for me to make my points and try to understand the levels in this House. I will not …

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much and apologise to my colleague who was on the Floor.

Sir, in the years that I have spent in this House, the Speaker has often ruled that, even though it is not denied, it should not be encouraged that hon. Members of the Executive, hon. Ministers and their Deputies, consistently rise on points of orders because, as hon. Members of the Executive, they have the opportunity to respond to issues raised by the Opposition. That is why, in an earlier point of order, it was suggested that, maybe, this is a sign of some sort of problem in the PF because, normally, it is the Back Benchers who should be raising these issues. That is not the case, this time, since it is the Executive doing so. There seems to be a problem.

Sir, is it in order for the Executive to continue to disturb the debate when they have an opportunity to respond to the issues that are raised?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In fact, I am glad that you have raised that point. The constant disturbance, quite frankly, comes from both sides. I think that we should allow ourselves to debate. We are not progressing as well as we ought to because of these constant points of order. I will soon be allowing the right to respond to a number of issues that have been raised. Let us exercise restraint to avoid my ignoring these points of order altogether.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, there is a difference between crying and lamenting. I am lamenting that our colleagues are not mindful of the fact that whatever goes up will come down at some point in time. There are a number of reasonable colleagues in the Executive, and I will take advantage of this opportunity to take my hat off to one hon. Deputy Minister. It is difficult to tell his ministry because there are too many these days, …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … but his name is Hon. Nickson Chilangwa. I have developed a lot of respect for this individual because, at the time I was being chastised by one of his colleagues … I think that he has walked out.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, as much as you may be commending some colleagues on the right, it is inappropriate, at least, in the context of this debate. If you want to convey those warm feelings, an appropriate forum needs to be identified.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. If my sentiments have caused pain to Hon. Chilangwa, then, I would like to withdraw them. However, I saw this individual protest to his colleagues when I was being assaulted at a police station. If only half of our colleagues on the right had that attitude, then, we would promote the spirit of co-existence and the rule of law.

Sir, I have no reason not to respect any hon. Member on the right. However, currently, I find it extremely difficult to do so.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo swatted a fly.

Mr Nkombo: They have sent a fly that is disturbing me as I am talking.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: It is, actually, a bee.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I think that I have belaboured the matter of political tolerance. Looking back, the twenty-one days of my incarceration mean nothing to me. However, as I look at the trumped-up charges that were levelled against me on instructions from fellow political players, I have learnt a lesson, which is that some people wish other people dead. To accuse another of a capital offence tells me that they are heartless individuals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: I lived with people who have been convicted of dangerous crimes, such as murder, aggravated robbery, … ciitwa buti eci cakujata bana?

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Defilement and rape, …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … and serving up to twenty-year jail sentences. They are now reformed and became my friends but, every night I slept, I asked God whether that was what the Zambian people wanted.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state, clearly, that my incarceration was engineered by some people here. I am not ashamed to state that the Judiciary and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) rose above board because they did what was expected of them.

Sir, I am lamenting the conduct of the police. How could someone, who has political power, tell the police to pick me, the campaign manager, up to answer for the death of someone whom I had never seen? That is draconian and heartless.

Mr Speaker, as I sit here and look at my colleagues on the right, I get scared, …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … not for myself, but for them.

Mr Muntanga: They are satanists.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Those who were responsible for my incarceration will meet their Waterloo one day. This is a Christian nation. As a matter of fact, I have received several notes from colleagues in the Government, with what I would term crocodile tears, not what the hon. Member who raised the point of order claimed. I hope that he understands what I am saying. The letters said that their writers were sorry for what had happened to me. A broken arm and a damaged ear were the injuries inflicted on me by a fellow ‘honourable’ Member of Parliament in 2013.

Mr Speaker, the police officers were good to me. All they did was carry out an instruction to detain me, but they never touched me. Then, there was the propaganda that I resisted arrest. He is the one who resisted arrest (pointing at Hon. Muntanga) …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … and it is a fact that it is he who resisted arrest.

Mr Muntanga rose on a point of order.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Do you mean that you are now debating the hon. Member for Kalomo Central?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: You can sit down, Hon. Muntanga.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, his resistance to being arrested, contrary to what the hon. Minister of Home Affairs reported to this House, was on the basis that one cannot murder someone who is 12 km away, unless through telepathy or by a gun. For you to be held responsible for a death, you must have had some contact with the dead person. In this era, we do not believe that a meteor or unidentified flying object (UFO) can be sent to kill someone from 12 km away.

Sir, if the Head of State is listening to my discourse, I urge him to start coaching his employees. I am told that he is Catholic, and I know that Catholics have respect for life. It is important that we learn from what happened to me and wish it on no one else.

Mr Speaker, I had given up on my life. I told God that it was well with me if that was the way things were going to be with my life. There will surely come a time when the Leader of Government Business in this House will no longer be in that seat. It is just a question of when. Therefore, I feel that it is time he started cleaning up his act.

Sir, it is extremely painful because, beyond politics, there are families and I belong to one. Half of the colleagues on your right are my family members. However, for the love of absolute power, I learnt that they can do anything.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes. They are crocodiles.

Mr Nkombo: One can claim that their hands were tied, but this was a political scheme that must be understood in that light. The abuse of human rights must never show its ugly face in this country again. You call yourselves ‘honourable,’ just like we do, yet there was absolutely nothing honourable about what happened to me, whereby junior police officers, such as constables, called me a murderer. I never killed anybody and I do not intend to do that.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, as I come to my conclusion, let me state that I now understand, very clearly, what I did not understand before, which is why great people, such as Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Dr Kenneth Kaunda, were ready to lose their lives for this job. I told myself that, if it was my life they were after, they could take it. The good thing is that, if that is their intention, I will not be there to lament, but other people will. It is important that His Honour the Vice-President, who happens to be my former workmate and officemate for nearly three years, and with whom we used to share cigarettes …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … with Tony Hutchinson, understands and coaches his colleagues that framing people is something that happened in the times of the Gestapo or the Russian Committee for State Security called the KGB, not today. Colleagues, there is a need for you to find it in your hearts to begin to harmonise and accept that constructive criticism is good for you, at any level. I was put in jail when I was supposed to be attending to the dams that were washed away at Mugoto due to excessive rainfall. I was put in jail when I should have been supervising developmental projects in my constituency.

Sir, many people, if not all, went on their knees to pray for some divine intervention for me to, one day, see the light of day like all of you. Please, Leader of Government Business in the House, you must never wish anybody to be in a predicament like the one I went through. I had a broken wrist and was being satirically chastised by small girls in the police, who said that I was playing football …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I have been very slow to step in. However, as I follow your debate, I have begun to note some repetition in the issues that you are raising. As much as they are very moving, for the sake of progress, let us avoid repetition.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged. As I wind up, I think that His Honour the Vice-President should stop chastising civil servants. As I speak to you, nearly ten, if not more, headteachers of schools in Livingstone have been forced on transfers because of the by-election that we just had. It is also true that police officers who tried to conduct a professional investigation into the unfortunate loss of a life have been thrown from place to place. What is there to achieve? A doctor who did not go to a meeting because he is Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) has been told to stay away from work by the Permanent Secretary (PS). I think, that amounts to human rights abuse.

Sir, finally, the majority rules, but it is also a stubborn fact that, sometimes, you cannot eat human waste because one million flies do so.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo):  Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for giving me the opportunity to support the Motion ably moved by His Honour the Vice-President. Before I do that, I would like to acknowledge and congratulate our first born in the Southern Province, Hon. Lawrence Evans, on emerging victorious in an election that was marred by many challenges. It is gratifying to note that we, as the PF family, have increased in number, from the time we came to this House. It is not only in this House, but the country at large, and that is an indication that people have started appreciating what this Government stands for and the programmes that have been put in place to transform this country.

Mr Speaker, I know that His Honour the Vice-President will respond to most of the issues that have been raised. However, I would like to commend my dear colleagues, the hon. Deputy and Cabinet Ministers for the way we have conducted ourselves in dealing with governance issues. There was a concern that we had not been responding adequately to the questions from the hon. Members of this House. I am sure, Mr Speaker, that you can testify to the fact that we have tried our best, with your guidance, to provide the responses required of us.

Mr Speaker, I will dwell on one very important issue, which is that of peace. As we go back to our constituencies, we should preach genuine peace because the constituencies we are responsible for have members of different political affiliations. Therefore, it is important that, as we go back to our constituencies, we preach genuine love. If we can co-exist in this House, even under difficult circumstances, we can go to our people and make them understand the value of co-existence, too.

Mr Speaker, the political violence that we have seen in this country did not start today. We have been witnessing it for some time. Speaking for the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is charged with the responsibility of ensuring that law and order, and peace and tranquility continue in the country, we have been very concerned. As I am appealing to the hon. Members to go and preach peace, I also draw their attention to the example of our President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, in 2006, when we thought that we had been robbed of an election victory. We, the general membership, were agitated and had almost started fighting to reclaim what we thought we had been robbed. It took the President, himself, to announce to us that it was not the best way to go. We had to be patient and, as a result, peace prevailed and we saved lives.

Mr Speaker, even now, we still have a chance. It does not make us happy to see our colleagues and friends incarcerated. Those of us who have the responsibility, through the police, cannot sit back and watch the country go up in flames. We are not going to do that. I will take this opportunity to assure the people of Zambia that this Government will do everything possible to ensure that this country continues to enjoy the peace and unity it has enjoyed over the years.

Mr Speaker, we have only one country and no place to run to. Therefore, it should not just be the responsibility of the Ministry of Home affairs or the Ministry of Defence to preserve peace. It should be the responsibility of every person.

Sir, we have seen instances when African leaders have been taken to the Hague, which is in Europe, to be tried. However, the ones who are tried are not the people who commit the atrocities because it is known that those people operate under certain leaderships. Therefore, as leaders, we must not run away from our responsibilities. We are the ones who can control our followers and ensure that they co-exist with others. It is very important that we do not shy away from facing the realities and opt to choose to only discuss those matters that suit us.

Mr Speaker, the country will have more elections in the future and, we, at the Ministry of Home Affairs, under the able leadership of our hon. Minister, Mr Edgar Lungu, have said that our door is always open to all of you our dear colleagues in this House. You can come and engage us so that we find a way of dealing with these by-elections properly because the ones we have had will not be the last. Therefore, let us start engaging ourselves meaningfully and genuinely. We do not want people to engage us only for them to start saying other things after the meetings.

Sir, I heard concerns regarding our preparedness to host the upcoming tourism conference. I know that the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts has been working tirelessly to ensure that all goes well. I remember that, even with the Supreme Council for Sports in Africa (SCSA) Zone VI Games, there were doubts that we would not host them successfully. However, as the Government, we resolved to forge ahead and, through our hardworking hon. Minister of Youth and Sport, we managed to do just that. That was history being written. I have no doubt in my mind that our hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts, who is working together with her colleagues in the Cabinet, will ensure that this programme is successful.

Mr Speaker, it is not my show. I know that His Honour the Vice-President will wrap up. Therefore, I will end here.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I remember, once, going to an old politician’s bedside in the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). The man seemed to be very exhausted and sick. When I mentioned to him that I had a television crew outside and asked if he wanted to say a few words to the nation, he told me to invite the television crew into the room.

Laughter

The Vice-President: The television camera has an interesting effect on politicians. They can talk and make up stuff as they go, some of which is quite moving if you like fiction.

Let me now talk about Professor Lungwangwa’s point, which I did not like. One of the ways in which the PF differs from the MMD, although they have the same roots, is this business of referring to cadres on the streets as if they were some pieces of junk, who could not be compared to us with Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degrees. It is not an attractive tendency to the Back Benchers, who simply shout, “Where would any of the doctors be without the cadres on the streets and us?” We would be floating somewhere else, not in the real world.

Mr Speaker, the issues raised by Hon. Lt-Gen Shikapwasha, such as the road in his constituency and the late disbursement of the CDF, had been there even before the PF ascended to power. The problems were just transferred to the PF. However, we will do our best to sort them out. Other issues on food security and school results came out inappropriately, but still looked good on television.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Sir, regarding discrimination in the application of the law, Hon. Mwiimbu said that any criminal can join the PF and, instantly, the legal process will end. That is not true and he knows that. He knows, for example, that we have people in this Executive who are facing court action and have not been miraculously protected from it. In fact, Hon. Nkombo’s trials and tribulations are not necessarily over because he is out on a nolle prosequi, not that he has no case to answer. Any legal process worth its salt works that way at times. I will take Hon. Nkombo’s commendations of how the DDP and other officers of the Judiciary are operating as a commendation to me. These are Government officers who work well under our facilitation. However, it is surprising for one to say, on one hand, that we are misusing the machinery of the Government and, on the other hand, commend that machinery for doing the right thing.

Laughter

The Vice-President: It does not make sense. His story is very moving, but that does not mean that he is right or being logical about it. I worked with him for three years in the same office, yes, and we had a good time. We were both paid more than we are paid now and were a lot safer then than we, sometimes, feel now.

Mr Speaker, regarding the so-called poaching or crossing the Floor, I am sure that we all remember the situation that arose in 2001. In fact, it occurred during the election of the Speaker, when there were so many Opposition hon. Members of Parliament. The MMD hon. Members were, more or less, equal to those of the Opposition. In fact, I think that the Opposition had a slight edge. We went to a meeting at the late Mr. Anderson Mazoka’s house and plotted on how to push a candidate other than Hon. Mwanamwambwa into your Chair, Mr Speaker. We figured that we had a margin of two, but the MMD had persuaded four hon. Members of Parliament from the Heritage Party (HP) to vote with it.

Hon. Opposition Member: We were there.

The Vice-President: We were all there or, at least, many of us were there. From then on, it was poaching because the MMD could not form a Government in splendid isolation. The four HP hon. Members of Parliament went as far as becoming by-elections fodder. People were taken even from the UPND. However, the most poached were from the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD). They included Mr Dipak Patel and Mr Chance Kabaghe. That is our history. The practice continued with the MMD through to the Rupiah Banda Era, after President Mwanawasa’s demise.

Mr Speaker, therefore, please, the idea that we have invented some ghastly kind of political disease …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … is one that I just cannot accept. Lest I seem like a television junky, myself, I will end at this point by urging other hon. Members who have not debated to support this Motion like their colleagues who have done so.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

Mr Speaker: As you can see, the time is now 1246 hours and we were supposed to move on to our next item, which is a Motion being moved by the hon. Minister of Justice. However, I will, at this juncture, use my discretion to suspend business so that we can begin on that Motion at 1430 hours.

_________________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

LUNCH ARRANGEMENTS

Mr Speaker: I have an announcement to make related to what will transpire between now and 1415 hours.

Lunch for all hon. Members will be served here, at the National Assembly Restaurant, while that for the members of staff and Government officials will be served at the National Assembly Members’ Motel. All these arrangements have been provided with the courtesy of the Office of the Hon. Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: This lunch break will be from 1300 hours to 1400 hours. Therefore, hon. Members are required to be seated in the Chamber by 1415 hours. In this regard, I urge all the Whips to ensure that a quorum is formed at 1430 hours so that we can continue with the business as reflected on the order of proceedings.

I thank you.

__________________{mospagebreak}

Business was suspended from 1248 hours until 1432 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

REMOVAL OF LEGAL IMMUNITY IN RESPECT OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT, MR RUPIAH BWEZANI BANDA

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise out of the provisions of Article 86 and 87 of the Constitution of Zambia, as read with Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, the Standing Orders of this House, the various pronouncements that have been made by your Office and the existing precedents in the Commonwealth, pertaining to the Motion under consideration.

Hon. Government Members: What is your point of order?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are all aware that at various fora as well as this House, you have advised that a matter that is in court cannot be discussed on the Floor of this House. On several occasions, your Office, through the Clerk’s Office, has written letters to various political parties pertaining to expulsions of hon. Members who have been appointed, who have resigned or are being disciplined and have taken the matters to court.

Your Office has always said that once a matter is in court, your hands are tied and that there is nothing you can do until the matter is resolved in the courts of law. You have always guided very diligently and prudently that when a matter is before the High Court or any other court in Zambia, this august House should not discuss that matter because it is sub judice.

The Motion that is being raised is a subject of litigation in the High Court of Zambia. As a result of the same being in the court, we feel, arising from the guidance you have always given, that we will not be in a position to debate the matter because it will be sub judice. In that light, we need to have your guided direction on this matter, considering that the issues that are going to be debated are the ones that are going to be discussed in court.

We are aware that the court documents were served on the Clerk’s Office yesterday afternoon. For ease of reference and to ensure that there is orderliness, I am going to lay the documents that were served on the Clerk’s Office on the Table. We do not intend to raise the merits and demerits of the Motion, but we think that the sanctity of this House must not only be seen to be protected, but must actually be protected.

Mr Speaker, we need your guidance.

Mr Mwiimbu laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

In another ruling before this House, I indicated that under the doctrine of the Separation of Powers, the House has a very unique freedom to determine and deal with its internal proceedings. This must have been in a matter involving, if my memory serves me right, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. I did issue a very elaborate ruling indicating that in so far as the internal proceedings and procedures of the House are concerned, they are not amenable to the jurisdiction of the court.

We have the freedom …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: I made that ruling. It is there in the records.

Under the separation of powers, the House is given the freedom to determine its internal proceedings and procedures. That is the position and that is my ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I am at a loss. Is this a division or what? This is a ruling.

The hon. Minister of Justice may proceed.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members rose.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members rose.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba: … to move a Motion that, in terms of Article 43(3) of the Constitution of Zambia, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Kabimba: … this House do resolve that Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, who has held, but no longer holds the Office of President, may be charged with any criminal offence or be …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Kabimba: … amenable to the criminal jurisdiction of any court, in respect of any act done or omitted to be done by him in his personal capacity while he held the Office of President and that such proceedings would not be contrary to the interest of the State.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

You have not ceased to be hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Member: These are double standards!

Mr Speaker: Order!

My decision is that I suspend business for fifteen minutes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Business was suspended from 1442 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, earlier on, there was a point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central and, in response, I made a ruling which, of course, prompted certain events. After very extensive discussions and consultations to and fro, we have all agreed that it would be in the best interest of the Business of the House to proceed with the Motion …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: … as earlier on indicated.

The hon. Minister of Justice may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Opposition Members rose.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, the matter is in court!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, please, sit down.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Please, sit down.

Hon. Opposition Members resumed their seats.

Mr Speaker: What I have just stated is what has transpired. We have had extensive discussions. As you can imagine, it has been almost two hours since business was suspended. For intents and purpose, we thought that these matters had been resolved.

Hon. Opposition Members: No. It has not been resolved.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Anyway, let me indicate this, because the majority were not present in those consultations. The point and the position of the Hon. Mr Speaker is that there are certain procedures which are a preserve of the House. Amongst those procedures includes business which is regulated by the Standing Orders. In this particular case, we do have a Motion before us whose genesis is from Article 43 of the Constitution of Zambia. This provision endorses Parliament with discretion to decide whether to remove the immunity of a President. In order to do so, a Motion has to be filed.

For those of you who were present when the immunity of the Second Republican was removed, you will recall that there was a very extensive discussion surrounding the procedure. Eventually, a Motion had to be framed and presented to Parliament. Business was accordingly transacted.

The position of the Hon. Mr Speaker is that whatever decision emerges from this internal process is amenable to a court process. This is how that decision, in the Chiluba case, was decided. An action was taken to the High Court, eventually, it culminated in a Judgement in the Supreme Court. In that Judgement, the Supreme Court is very clear. This is a case of Chiluba versus the Attorney-General 2003, Zambia Law Report, page 153. Just to sum it up, I cannot go into the detailed Judgement, but the conclusion is that, in terms of Article 43(3), there is no need for any person who has his immunity removed to be heard. That is the ultimate conclusion. That is one of the issues in this action. The second issue is about two-thirds requirement and that is even an easier one. If you look at Article 43 (3), it does not require a two-thirds majority.

The question we have, here, is that Hon. Mwiimbu made a very elaborate submission, and I credit him for it, that we need to preserve the sanctity or the strength of this House. That strength he referred to lies in the very issue that I am trying to do this afternoon, namely not to open the internal proceedings of this House to court. However, if the ultimate decision violates any provisions of the law, any person is free to proceed to the court. However, once an action is taken to court and we are shown papers, and in that action even the Hon. Mr Speaker, who could, otherwise, have been party to, is not even party, as this is an action between the Attorney-General and the Fourth President. They have issues relating to Article 43(3), in spite of the courts or what the Supreme Court had said, that is for the courts to finally decide.

Therefore, when we were at our last round, and after these extensive consultations, quite frankly, I got the impression that after this, we would ring the bells after which everybody would be seated.

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Speaker: Let me finish. I am in charge.

I want to be very clear about this. There are a number of options. My decisions are also open to review. If whatever will transpire this afternoon violates any law, constitutional or otherwise, it will be impeached. Quite frankly, I would be the last person to preside over proceedings which are underpinned with illegalities. However, you are all free to decide, at the end of the day, whether that is the route to go. In the meantime, we need to proceed in an orderly fashion.

Proceeding in an orderly fashion does not mean my insisting on you being present. I cannot do that. Nonetheless, what is not permissible is to obstruct the proceedings.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That, equally, is against the rule of law. I think we must be clear about this.

I mentioned to your colleagues who came to see me that the incident that you have already portrayed to the nation, so far, in my opinion, is most regrettable. Those actions present a very ugly scene. If you want to vindicate those rights, there are institutions outside Parliament and there is timing for it. In my earlier ruling, I did indicate that I made a ruling in relation to a point of order by Hon. Muntanga. I made the same point and those who came to the chambers were shown those proceedings. So, I am quite surprised that after talking and discussing for two hours, we are coming to this. However, I must state that we are proceeding and there will not be any obstruction. I want to treat everybody with the dignity that they deserve. I think, let us proceed on that basis, but there will not be any obstruction.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to proceed with the Motion that I moved this afternoon.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members rose.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members remained standing.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member has raised a point of order, respect him and sit down.

Hon. Opposition Members resumed their seats.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, earlier on, we were talking about how my friend was detained by the police in Livingstone for three weeks while I was detained for five days. This makes Zambia look like a police State. Is it in order that this Assembly, in particular, the grounds of Parliament, should have paramilitary police in riot gear to intimidate hon. Members of Parliament and threaten them to only do what they are required?

Sir, at once, Hon. Dipak Patel asked a question in this House and when he left Parliament, he was followed by the police. He only escaped that police trail when he entered the Parliament Motel grounds and security personnel at the motel stopped the police by telling them that they could not pursue Hon. Patel inside the Parliament premises unless they got permission from the Hon. Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, is it, therefore, in order that we should now have police in riot gear on Parliament grounds, whose intention is to intimidate hon. Members of Parliament?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, if your colleagues, whom we had discussions with, had briefed you fully, they would have informed you of the explanation given when that issue was raised in the meeting. These measures were put in place because we got information that cadres from both sides were bound to come through and were likely to create disorder.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hold on. You wanted a ruling and I am ruling. This particular event was not anticipated. I did not anticipate that it would come down to this. So, the presence of those police officers is not as a result of the incident that started at 1430 hours, certainly not. I want to reiterate that there are avenues for lodging protests and actions in a democracy. We all believe in the rule of law. If the Hon. Mr Speaker has erred, ultimately, like any other public official, my actions and decisions are subject to judicial review. That judicial review cannot be resorted to at this juncture and it is within my jurisdiction to ensure that once I decide that business is to be transacted, it must be transacted orderly. If you still feel and are still convinced that I am wrong, ultimately, the courts are out there. They will review all these proceedings and arrive at a final decision. However, and quite frankly, it will not do to go in front of the cameras and obstruct or stop the Business of the House because that takes a different character all together. That takes a different character.

In terms of the rule of law, you can still sue the Hon. Mr Speaker who is ready to go to court and explain.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: I am telling you because I am in charge of these proceedings. I am telling you the position and I am not mincing anything. However, obstruction is the last thing we should do. The law is very clear, both on what I have said and the larger issues, but certainly obstruction cannot be a solution here. I think I am being very diplomatic and I am belabouring this point.

The bottom line is that we need to maintain the dignity of this august House and it is my responsibility to ensure that this is done. I spent almost two hours reasoning and appealing, but if that has been without avail, that is something else. I insist that we shall not have any obstruction although you can challenge the Hon. Mr Speaker. You can take any other civil measures against the Hon. Mr Speaker, but not obstruction because, then, you will be exceeding your rights. As we all know, there are limits which are prescribed by the Constitution itself.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. In support of the notice of Motion that has been laid before this august House, …

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. We are at pains in trying to understand what has transpired. You agree that the issue of lifting the former Head of State’s immunity is a very grave matter. In terms of procedure, you did call the two whips to your chambers. However, contrary to what you have said, you were advised by the whips, but did not agree with them. After giving your overview, how do we proceed because we have not been accorded a chance to air our views on this matter since we are all affected?

Mr Speaker: Sorry, can I get your question again. Is your point whether you can debate?

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I rose on a point of procedure and said that the lifting of the immunity for the former President is a very grave matter and you have seen the concern arising from this side. You went to resolve this matter with our two whips who have informed us that you did not agree with them, which is contrary to what you have said. So, in terms of procedure, how do we proceed?

Mr Speaker: Well, I think the point you have raised is very important. Like I said, I would not have called for the bells to be rung in that fashion if I had not thought that we had not come to an agreement. However, we had a very lengthy discussion. Tacitly, I gathered that we had reached an accord and I had my support staff with me. We could not have triggered this. This is not subterfuge because that is beneath me. However, I still want to make the point that, as the Hon. Mr Speaker, I have made certain decisions already. I have also made a ruling and so I am simply belabouring the point. The ruling I have made, to clear any doubt, is that the Motion and internal proceedings cannot, at this stage, be questioned, especially by that particular action. There is nothing that has persuaded me to allow this Motion to be deferred. If I have committed an error, and I am capable of committing one, there is also another process which can be ignited and you can resort to it to challenge whatever outcome will emerge from this.

My only appeal is that since we believe in the rule of law, let us ensure that we conduct ourselves orderly. That is all. If you believe that what we are going to engage in is a total nullity, you can demonstrate elsewhere that this was just a sham and you will be vindicated. However, in the meantime, I stress, I will not allow a situation where the proceedings are obstructed because my function is to ensure that they are not obstructed.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion that is before …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for granting me this point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to present to this House a very serious matter of national concern, the proposed removal of the immunity of the former President, when he is not the President of this country and does not even know what is in that office?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, a precedent has been set in this country where the removal of the immunity of a former Head of State was presented to this House by the occupant of the office, the Head of State himself.  In that case, this was the late Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let the hon. Member continue.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I repeat: Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to present a matter of very serious national concern to this House when he is not the President of this country? I need your very serious ruling on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruption

Mr Speaker: Order!

If you care to look at the Hansard on past proceedings that I had the privilege of reading, you will find that a great deal of time was spent on determining whether that address by the late President Mwanawasa, SC., in itself, constituted a Motion. After very extensive discussions and debate, my predecessor guided the House that it did not and a Motion was quickly drafted and moved, and the House proceeded on that basis.

I am glad you have raised this point, hon. Member for Nalikwanda. What we have done in this case is that we have relied on Standing Order 37. The point I was making earlier on is that these Standing Orders represent an internal constitution and by Standing Order 37, the hon. Minister of Justice or any other hon. Minister is entitled to present a Motion. In short, if you visit the Constitution, National Assembly Privileges Act and Standing Orders, you will discover that there is nothing that prescribes that such a Motion ought to be presented by His Excellency the President. When the late President came to present that address, he used another article in the Constitution, which generally allows the President, at any time, if he so wishes, to address this august Assembly. He is an hon. Member of Parliament, in that sense, though a special one. So, in conclusion, the Motion is being properly presented by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, thank you, again …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, we are dealing with a very serious national matter here.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member speak.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, the genesis of this problem emanates from the fact that the Opposition has been abused by the Office of the Speaker …

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: … on account that matters that are before the courts of law cannot be discussed in this House. Not only that, on certain occasions, the Opposition in this country has been abused on account of just a letter from an hon. Member of Parliament to the Clerk’s Office whose matter is before the courts. Those hon. Members are still seated on your right side today.

Hon. PF Members: What is the point of order?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Just wait.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, we feel aggrieved and I want to put it on record that there are many ways in which a person can express his grievance and one way of doing so is that which you are seeing happening right now. We are tired and for you, Mr Speaker, to turn around when, a few days ago, you indicated, through your office, that issues that are before the court cannot be discussed, we feel very much aggrieved. No wonder we are ready to use any means possible to make sure that this Motion does not proceed today until the courts of the Republic of Zambia decide upon this matter and the procedures of this House. So, it is in the interest of Zambia …

Mr Speaker: What is the point of order?

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Are you in order, Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let me answer.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I think you have made your point.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Yes, Mr Speaker, you have got my point. Is this House in order to proceed in a double-standard manner on matters that are before the courts?

Mr Speaker: You have made your point.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, that is my point of order and I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, this is one of the issues we discussed for most of the two hours that we met your leadership. For the benefit of the rest, I will reiterate what we discussed in that meeting and what we were trying to explain to your leadership. You see, for those actions which we have deferred to the courts, and these are very fine points, the first and final arbiters are the courts themselves. If you are challenging your colleague that the election was not duly done, it has nothing to do with the National Assembly as regards the case’s determination. We defer to the courts of law and in order to enable the courts to determine those issues, there is a well-established convention that we should wait for that outcome. This is different and this is what we are trying to distinguish.

Mr Kakoma interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!{mospagebreak}

Just wait. You cannot speak from your seat, hon. Member for Zambezi West. In this case, the issue is whether or not there is anything inherent in that action to prevent the hon. Minister of Justice from invoking this Standing Order No. 2 and Article 43(3). My answer to those questions is in the negative. Nothing, and that is my ruling. As I have said earlier, whether we have made a mistake or not, as long as a ruling has been made, it has to be respected.

Secondly, if there will be illegal consequences following my decision, they will be open, eventually, to judicial review and that ultimate decision will be open to interpretation and so forth and if there are any legal injuries suffered, they will be subject to compensation. If there is any restraining to be done, in the interim, interim orders can be made. So, the point I am trying to belabour is that as far as I am concerned, I am acting within the perimeters of the law and in my best Judgement, not only as a Speaker, but as a lawyer and also a High Court Judge. By the way, these issues I said were canvassed. They were discussed at length and certain impressions were created and the bell was rung and I will end there.

Hon. Minister of Justice, continue.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Thank you, again, Mr Speaker, for your indulgence. Let me start by …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, are we in order to go ahead with this Motion when a precedent, even as you have ruled that there was never before in this country where Parliament removed the immunity of the President and the precedent was set when the removal of immunity on the late Former Second President, Mr F. T. J. Chiluba, was done by this House. The President appeared before Parliament to indicate that there was a prima facie case that needed Parliament to remove the immunity of the late Former Second President.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mufalali: Are we in order to move the way we are doing by letting the hon. Minister of Justice come to the House to present a Motion before the President comes before this House to present a prima facie case so that the Motion could be prepared thereafter? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Well, I had ruled on this, but being a former academic, I had to learn to cultivate patience. When the late Former Third President, Mr L. P. Mwanawasa, SC. came, as I mentioned earlier, he invoked, I think, Article 88 which allowed him to forego or convene Parliament at any time and I have mentioned that even any sitting President has that power. That is what the late Third President, Mr Mwanawasa, SC., did. He came and addressed the nation and made or disclosed those issues as he did. As I explained earlier, after the address, the hon. Members of Parliament were left with the problem. Was it an address or a Motion? Eventually, the answer was that it was not a Motion, but just an address. So, they had to craft a Motion. In this case, our Standing Order 37 permits any hon. Minister to present this Motion and it is in this context and regard that the hon. Minister of Justice is presenting this Motion. So, yes, a speech was made, but that speech other than being an address, there was nothing beyond it. It was just an address, but what we have here is that we have just gone straight into business or Motion as required by our own constitution. I would like to call this internal constitution, the Standing Orders. So, we complied with Standing Order 57.

The hon. Minister of Justice continue.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. Let me start …

Mr Belemu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, is this House in order to allow the hon. Minister of Justice to move this Motion, in fact, making him a Judge in his cause since he is the one who is going to defend the position of the Government, and it is a notorious fact that the same hon. Minister of Justice has been in the public threatening to deal with hon. Members of the Opposition and the Former President, Mr R. B. Banda, to be specific, thereby making it political prosecution in the eyes of the ordinary citizens? Are we in order to allow him, when he has been quoted so many times, to become a Judge in his own cause?

Mr Speaker, I need your ruling.

Mr Speaker: He is perfectly in order. You have asked for a ruling. The Judges in this cause will be the National Assembly. They are the ones who will decide ultimately.

The Minister of Justice can continue.

Hon. Opposition Members left the Assembly Chamber singing.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister of Justice, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, in support of the Motion that I have moved before this House, let me start by giving the House the background to this Motion.

Mr Speaker, in October, 2006, the late Third President, Mr Mwanawasa, SC., was elected for his second term of office in the Presidential and Parliamentary elections of that year. After the dismissal of Pastor Nevers Mumba as His Vice-President, late Third President Mwanawasa, SC., appointed Mr Lupando Mwape as Republican Vice-President. After Mr Mwape lost parliamentary elections in 2006, the late Third President Mwanawasa, SC., appointed Mr R. B. Banda as Vice-President.

In May, 2008, while attending an African Union Summit of Heads of State and Government in Egypt, Mr Mwanawasa, SC., suffered a stroke which saw him being evacuated to Paris, France, for medical treatment. The President died in Paris on the 19th August, 2008. The death of the President necessitated a presidential by-election under our Republican Constitution within ninety days. The presidential by-election was held on 30th October, 2008, with Mr R. B. Banda as presidential candidate for the MMD. He went on to win the election by 40.09 per cent, against the closest candidate, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, of the PF, who polled 38.13 per cent of the total votes cast.  Consequently, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda was sworn in as Zambia’s Fourth Republican President to finish the residual term of office of five years which expired in 2011. Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda also became president of the MMD.

Mr Speaker, one of the major steps taken by the Banda Administration was the amendment to the Anti-Corruption Act which saw the removal of the clause with the provision for abuse of authority of office of public officers. This clause was later reinstated by the PF Government in 2012 after winning the September, 2011 Presidential and General Elections.

Mr Speaker, the restoration of the clause was intended, and I repeat, was intended to send a clear message to the public and the international community that the PF Government was serious and uncompromising about the fight against corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, we have maintained this stance through several public pronouncements by His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Sata.

Mr Speaker, during the period 2008 to 2011, there was public concern about allegations of prevalent acts of abuse of office and corruption by serving public officers and hon. Ministers in the Banda Administration. These allegations also extended to Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, as President, and some members of his family.

After the PF took over the reins of power, following the 20th September, 2011 Presidential and General Elections, there was mounting public demand to investigate the alleged acts of corruption and misappropriation of public funds and bring those involved to account for such offences, including former President Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

In response to this public demand, the Government, in 2011, established the Government Joint Investigation Team (GJIT) to probe and prosecute cases of corruption, fraud and money laundering through our established criminal justice system which presumes an accused person innocent until proven guilty by an impartial tribunal after a fair trial. The GJIT has since secured convictions against some individuals while the prosecution of others is still ongoing.

Mr Speaker, on 4th February, 2013, the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), who is Chairperson of the GJIT, wrote to Mr Banda. In that letter, she invited him to appear before the GJIT in order to answer questions on allegations of corruption and abuse of office during his term of office as President.

Mr Banda declined the invitation by the GJIT, through his lawyers, Messrs Central Chambers, whose Managing Partner is Mr Sakwiba Sikota. In the letter to the Director-General of the ACC, dated 5th February, 2013, the lawyers responded as follows:

“The Director-General
Anti-Corruption Commission
P.O Box 50486
LUSAKA
ZAMBIA

“Dear Madam,

“Subject: Invitation for Interview for His Excellency Mr Rupiah B. Banda over Allegations of Corruption and Criminal Activities

“We refer to the above matter and your letter of the 4th February, 2013 which, has been handed over to us with instructions to reply.

“As rightly stated in your letter, our client, His Excellency the Former President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, enjoys immunity under Article 43 of the Constitution. The framers of the Constitution were minded to put in this Article for good reasons. It would be wrong for us to agree to a scheme that circumvents the Constitution of this land.

“If we are prepared to circumvent even the Constitution of the land, what guarantees do we have that the other laws under which the proposed investigations and prosecution will be held are going to be followed?

“We have read in the newspapers that the press is already aware of the steps you are taking and looking at the editorial headlines the papers have and the time when the letter was delivered to our client’s residence, it is clear that the press had the letter even before it was delivered to our client.

“Our client has seen that you wish to have conviction through the press before you even go to court. This is born out of the fact that you saw it fit to leak your letter to all the press media and the press you consider favourable to the State. Our client is not prepared to subject himself to a media trial.

“Kindly be advised that we are acting as co-counsel in this matter with Professor Patrick Mvunga of Messrs Mvunga& Associates and all further communications in this matter should be directed through us and Messrs Mvunga & Associates.

“Yours Faithfully
CENTRAL CHAMBERS

“Sakwiba Sikota
STATE COUNSEL

“Cc: Messrs Mvunga & Associates
Cc: His Excellency the President Rupiah B. Banda.”

Mr Speaker, in view of the letter above, the House is hereby moved, under Article 43(3) of the Republican Constitution, to resolve that any criminal proceedings instituted against Former President Rupiah Bwezani Banda should not be contrary to the interest of the State.

Grounds of Allegations

(a)    Abuse of Authority of, corrupt acquisition of public property and misappropriation and/or revenue of moneys and revenue in respect of crude oil contracts with the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation.

Mr Speaker, on 21st December, 2011, the GJIT conducted a search on the property of Hon. Kenneth Konga, former Minister of Energy and Water Development then, in Kabulonga, Lusaka. During the said search, the GJIT came into possession of a letter dated 25th November, 2008, which was personally signed by the Former President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, requesting the supply of 25,000 barrels per day of tame crude oil from the Nigerian Petroleum Corporation in Nigeria.

The GJIT, through its investigations, has established that the Zambian Government paid the sum of US$2.5 million to the Nigerian National Oil Company for the said crude oil facility through the Zambian Government’s Nigerian procurement and facility agency called Sub-Energy Limited.

The GJIT has further established that Mr Henry Banda, the son of Former President Rupiah Bwezani Banda, was involved in the oil deal with the sole responsibility of deciding where the Nigerian Company, Sub-Energy Limited, which was assigned the responsibility to uplift the crude oil, would remit the proceeds of this transaction.

The GJIT has further established that Mr Henry Banda opened an offshore bank account with Barclays Bank in Singapore into which the proceeds of the crude oil were remitted on behalf of his father, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, instead of the National Treasury of the Government of the Republic of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

This diversion of the crude oil proceeds revenue constitutes an abuse of authority of office, fraud and misappropriation of public funds on Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda’s part for which he must be prosecuted by the GJIT.

(a)    Importation and Customs Clearance of Movement for Multi-party Democracy Campaign Material

Mr Speaker, investigations conducted by the GJIT have, so far, established that Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda and his family, in 2011, spent more than K20 billion on the purchase of election campaign material. This sum of money was personally handled and disbursed in cash by former President Rupiah Bwezani Banda and his sons. Mr Banda disbursed the funds through his Senior Private Secretary and the then MMD Campaign Centre Manager.

Further, Former President Rupiah Banda also disbursed K60 million, paid in three instalments of K20 million, to each Parliamentary candidate on the MMD ticket during the 2011 elections. He also disbursed K2 million to each local Government candidate or councillor for the 1,400 wards in the country. The GJIT has now established that the sum of K21,907,847,170 cash was personally disbursed by former President Rupiah Bwezani Banda and his family. It has also been established that the MMD did not have any such amounts of monies in its bank accounts at any one time.

Mr Speaker, although the Senior Private Secretary to Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda was responsible for the sourcing, consigning to his name and receipting of all campaign materials and payments, he told the GJIT, during the course of investigations, that he did not know the source of the funds or the actual sum thereof as this information was only known by the Former President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

During the period in question, the Former President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, purchased the items and materials listed here: From India, at a company called Atlas Cycles, and another one called Metro, he purchased bicycle spares and accessories and printed fabrics valued at K371,908,000. From the United Arab Emirates, from a company called Western Emirates, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda purchased forty-two Toyota Hilux 2010 model vehicles valued at K1,869,840,000. He also purchased branded sweet candy lollypops.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, from the United Kingdom, from a company called Witham Specialist Vehicles, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda purchased forty used Bedford Trucks valued at K686,501,629. From China, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda bought branded T-shirts valued at K411,917,893, branded caps valued at K21,884,175, branded badges valued at K131,823,695, branded hats valued at K14,500,380, branded balloons valued at K9,227,385, and branded hand flags valued at K12,727,088.

Mr Speaker, from Japan, from a company called Trust Company, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda bought seventy-seven used light trucks valued at K1,246,166,872. From Malawi, from a company called Goodson Ginford Bonongwe, he purchased 2,407 bales of printed fabric valued at K68,770,938. From South Africa, from a company called Tokyo Car Choudhry and Amalgamated, he purchased T-shirts valued at K29,403,197. He also purchased badges valued at K25,347,556 and hats valued at K2,788,209. He also purchased balloons valued at K1,774,263 and various types of vehicles valued at K1,066,879,353.

Mr Speaker, Mr Banda’s personal handling of such large sums of money and his activities constitute acts of money laundering and/or the presumption that the funds in question came from the Zambian Treasury as public funds for which he is liable for prosecution by the GJIT.

(c)    Acts of Corruption in Respect of the Mpundu Property Development Trust.

Mr Speaker, Mpundu Trust Limited was incorporated and registered on 16th March, 2009. Its main objective was to develop real estate. The directors of the trust were Thandiwe Chilongo Banda, spouse of former President Rupiah Bwezani Banda, a Miss Miriam Chilongo and one Robert Penney. In February, 2012, the Former President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, became a director in Mpundu Trust Limited after the resignation of Mr Robert Penny and Miriam Chilongo. The GJIT has established that Nyiombo Investments procured an unsecured loan in Dubai for Mpundu Trust Limited in the sum of US$1 million from a company known as Hands Industries. This company is listed in Dubai as a dealer in clothing merchandise and not a financing house. It is significant to note that Mr Banda and his family prepared their own loan agreement in respect of this loan of US$1 million. This was a very strange act by a customer of a bank. In the absence of any reasonable explanation from Mr Banda, the presumption that the loan constitutes gratification under the provisions of the Anti-Corruption Act of 2012 is inevitable, and hence, an offence for prosecution by the GJIT.

(d)    Money laundering activities by former President Banda and members of his family in the acquisition of assets.

Mr Speaker, investigations by the GJIT have, so far, established that Mr Banda and his family have been using Mauritius-registered off-shore companies to finance opaque transactions that are indicative of money laundering activities as follows:

(i)    Acquisition of a bus worth US$200,000. Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda and his family acquired a Higer bus worth US$200,000 with funds from an entity called Charisma Investments in Mauritius.

(ii)    Branded bulbs worth US$60,000. They had even stopped using ordinary bulbs, they were using branded bulbs. Mr Banda and his family acquired branded bulbs from China worth US$60,000 paid for by Charisma Investments of Mauritius.

(iii)    Importation of Shoes worth US$300,000. Mr Banda and his family imported shoes into Zambia worth US$300,000 also financed by Charisma Investments of Mauritius.

(iv)    Importation of trucks from the United Kingdom worth UK£100,000. Mr Banda and his family imported and registered in Zambia thirty-eight Bedford Trucks acquired from the United Kingdom.

Mr Speaker, the GJIT wants to prosecute Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda for the above offences of money laundering. In view of the foregoing, I hereby submit before this August House that the House should resolve that criminal proceedings against Mr Banda would not be contrary to the interest of the State whatsoever, and that the GJIT must proceed to prosecute him on the evidence, so far, established against him.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to add a word to the debate on the Motion on the Floor, which I support for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency. This is a Motion which touches a lot of lives. That is why it has different emotions attached to it.

Mr Speaker, the genesis and the history that has been given by the mover of the Motion must be appreciated by everyone. I also want to add a bit more to what he said. We have seen the removal of immunity from a former President of this country. Former President Kenneth Kaunda was arrested, detained and put under house arrest over the alleged missing of a book from State House.

Hon. Government Member: Shame!

Mr Bwalya: Painful and humiliating as it was, it was done in the best interest of the rule of law. This was followed by the removal of immunity of Former President, Dr Chiluba, may his soul rest in peace. Unfortunately or fortunately, that precedent was set by the MMD and they did it to their party president. Again, that was very painful. Those of us who were on the terraces watched and lamented. It was unfortunate that somebody who was well supported, could turn around and stab the person who put him onto the podium, in his back. However, we have to bear in mind the fact that it was done in the best interest of the rule of law.

Mr Speaker, the rule of law cannot be separated from good governance. Therefore, for good governance to be upheld, we need to do things according to the rule of law. This is what we are seeing today.

Sir, we are mindful that we are not operating in a vacuum. Therefore, we are not an island. We appreciate the concerns of the international community and we like and value their contribution. This issue requires level headedness so that we allow our beloved Former President, Mr Rupiah Banda, to exculpate himself.

Mr Speaker, it is our responsibility to ensure that the competent authorities that are charged with the responsibility of investigating and determining whether one is guilty or not are given the platform on which to operate properly. It is in this light that this Motion has been moved. It is in that spirit that we are asking our beloved former President to answer to all these allegations. They are allegations as at now and it is up to him to clear the air.

Sir, the figures that have been alluded to are quite enormous. I am beginning to think that the people of Lupososhi are right by saying that their poverty levels are as a result of the misapplication of funds. I think, as a people, we need to ask ourselves why certain areas of our country cannot access radio reception. We need to ask ourselves why the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation has few cameras. In fact, in Luwingu, there is not even a camera. The one which is at the provincial headquarters in Kasama is faulty.

We now know that some of these issues and the poverty that we have been experiencing is as a result of the colossal sums of money that have been mentioned in this Motion being misapplied. I now understand why the Musele/Katuta/Sobini Road cannot be graded. Even just to put gravel has been a problem. For the past twenty years, the people have had problems because K21 billion, as we have heard, was spent on buying campaign materials.

Mr Speaker, we need to find out whether this money was, indeed, personal or public money. I think that this is the point which this Motion seeks to address.

Sir, I have problems believing that a sum of US$300,000 could be used to buy shoes, yet the children of Lupososhi do not even have a decent classroom where to learn from. How could people use US$60,000 to buy branded bulbs? I think, as Zambians, we need to reflect on such issues.

Mr Speaker, authority requires one to be accountable. Accountability is a prerequisite of good governance. It requires that the rule of law is respected. It is very painful that we have to unveil our own beloved former President. However, must we keep quiet and allow the misapplication of funds to an extent that the people of Ikeleng’i and Lunte cannot even access medical health care?

Mr Speaker, I think the people of Chadiza …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hmm!

Laughter

Mr Bwalya: … require better than this. The Zambian people are questioning, especially, my people in Lupososhi Constituency, why, since Independence, the Luwingu/Nsombo/Chaba/Chilubi Road has not been tarred.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it is because we have heard that forty vehicles were bought to ensure that the MMD won the elections at all costs. I do not think that this is development.

Mr Speaker, it is also important that we find out why Charisma was so generous to our Former President to the extent that they were able to do all these favours for him.

Sir, leadership demands transparency and accountability. Who else can answer for this apart from Mr Rupiah Banda?

Mr Speaker, with these few concerns, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Works, Supply, Transport and Communication (Col Kaunda): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. In the midst of the confusion of this afternoon, we forgot to thank you for the lunch that we had today.

Laughter

Col Kaunda: Mr Speaker, I think we need to understand what this immunity we are trying to remove from the former President is all about. During the rule of Dr Kenneth Kaunda, he relied on declaring a state of emergency whenever he was faced with problems such as the one we have. During his reign, people could be detained for some time without trial and a person’s passport would be grabbed without him or her having any recourse. That was what the law stated. You cannot remove his immunity and prosecute him for what he did because the law allowed him to do so. However, you could remove his immunity if he had stolen money or misused his office. That is the point we are trying to get across. We are not stripping Mr Rupiah Banda of his immunity because he ruled badly, but because there are allegations that he stole public funds.

Mr Speaker, it is important that we understand where we are coming from. Our forefathers had regulations which governed their conduct in office. They had what they called the Leadership Code. It was put in place to stop the conduct we are debating today. As a leader, you were not allowed to do business if you were in the Government. This was meant to stop leaders from abusing their offices. Even we, the children of the President then, were not allowed to engage in business with the Government in order to avoid what Mr Rupiah Banda is suspected of having done. However, they did not stop you from doing any other business.

Mr Speaker, the Zambian people must understand that there are no intentions of vengeance or revenge in what we are doing today. Apart from Hon. Chikwanda and Hon. Wina, I might be the only one close enough to the former President to stand here and support this Motion. I do it with a heavy heart, but it must be done. It is like a boil in an embarrassing place, which really hurts, but must be removed. It is important not only for Rupiah Banda, but for the future.

Sir, those of us who are aspiring to be President of this country must understand that we must behave ourselves. We thank His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Sata, for not shielding his son when he was accused of corruption. The first thing he did was send him to the ACC, but he was cleared.

Mr Speaker, when my father was President, I was accused of smuggling by the late Former Prime Minister, may his soul rest in peace, Kebby Musokotwane, who said I was smuggling fish from Malawi in my trucks. My father did not shield me. I was investigated and cleared.

Mr Speaker, my brother accidentally shot a young girl and he also was not shielded. He was tried, convicted and condemned to death. It was only the Supreme Court, on appeal, that freed him. That is how a President must behave. The President and his or her children are not supposed to be above the law.

Sir, when the ACC called Mr Banda, they did not say he was guilty. They just wanted him to help them with the investigation with his immunity still being kept intact. He refused to co-operate with the ACC. The only way that we can establish the truth is by removing his immunity so that the authorities can interrogate him as an ordinary citizen.

Mr Speaker, when Dr Kenneth Kaunda left office, our friends who are now absent said he had stolen some books. For four hours they searched him even when his immunity was still intact. The Government then even involved Scotland Yard to investigate his family all over the world while his immunity was still intact. He did not refuse to co-operate with the investigative wings. Had he refused, that case would have been brought to Parliament and it would have removed his immunity. He is here today with his dignity intact because he was proved innocent. There is nothing wrong with the Government, through the ACC and other organisations, asking the former President to go and report to the authorities to be probed.

Mr Speaker, we must all insist that all forms of corruption are prosecuted. Corruption is a cancer in this country which should be dealt with. If we let go of this case, then, nobody will learn a lesson. Immunity is not a right, but a privilege given to those in authority by the people of Zambia. It can be removed at any time.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, I do not support the Motion before the House because what the hon. Minister of Justice has brought before this House are allegations. Since they are allegations, I feel the method used to lift the immunity has not been fully followed. In my opinion, justice should prevail, but the right procedures should be followed.

Sir, I feel victimised because there was not enough time given to the Opposition to try to defend this matter before the House.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would want to put it on record that we are setting a very bad precedent for our children, who are future leaders.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: If it was wrong for the MMD to pursue Dr Kaunda and Dr Chiluba, then, the PF should not go the same way. What is happening today is what will take place tomorrow.

Hon. Government Members: Yes, that is what we want.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbewe: You want to swallow me alive? Let me talk.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You are protected.

Mr Mbewe:  Mr Speaker, I thank you for your protection.

Mr Speaker, to avoid this occurrence from being repeated, I have a suggestion for the Zambian people and the hon. Members on your right. There is a need to remove the clause regarding the President’s immunity in the Constitution so that the President can be questioned while he is in office …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: … because this occurrence will continue into future generations.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I would like to put it on record that I do not support this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Namulambe): Mr Speaker, I have been prompted to debate by the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda who insinuated that some people had become intellectually bankrupt instead of being morally bankrupt.

Mr Speaker, I think that my former party has been affected by a political tsunami. Due to the intellectual bankruptcy in the leadership, my former party does not have new ideas of how to win elections. This political tsunami hit Mpongwe, Livingstone, Kapiri Mposhi, Lukulu West and ended up in the Zambezi River.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice has ably moved the Motion on the Floor and he is not saying the former President is guilty. According to Article 18 of our Republican Constitution, a person is not guilty until it is so proven by the courts of law. What has been raised in the House, today, are mere allegations from which a person can exonerate himself. For instance, we heard from the letter that was read, here, which states that when the former President was called by the investigative wings to exculpate himself, his lawyers told him not to go there because he had the immunity and it was obeyed. Today, the Motion to remove the former President’s immunity has been brought before this House, but the end result is the hon. Opposition Members walking away. These are issues that I raised in my Maiden Speech that when people do not have issues, they resort to walking away.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker:  A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Mpongwe in order to indicate that the Opposition Members have walked out when we are here?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Well, indeed, there are some hon. Members of the Opposition and I think the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs should take note of that. You need to make your statement in a very qualified manner.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I will quote from the Parliamentary debate by Brig-Gen Dr Chituwo, during the lifting of the immunity of the late President, Dr Chiluba. He said, on page 25 of the Parliamentary debate of 16th July, 2002, as follows:

“Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share this debate. In the first instance, I am happy to be part of the history that this country, through this National Assembly, is making.

Mr Speaker, the Motion was very clear and it is also clear that Parliament is not a court of law. What we have done this afternoon is share in the responsibility of managing and administering the country. The National Assembly has played its role and, now, it remains with the Judiciary. It has to be made very clear that these remain allegations until the former President, Dr Chiluba, appears before the courts of law. This is how it should be. We have done our job and we will have to be Judged, whether it continues.”

Mr Speaker, the allegations that have been outlined by the hon. Minister of Justice will remain allegations until the former President goes to explain himself and prove his point. When he has been proven not guilty, he will be set free. This is just to remove the perception by many people that there was abuse of office and misappropriation of funds. For instance, there was an issue about oil funds being put into some account of Barclays Bank in Singapore. It is also public knowledge that my brother, Henry, will have to answer to such allegations. I do not know if he is in the country or not.

Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that this is an opportunity for someone to go and clear himself. Parliament is simply saying that since there have been requests by the lawyers, the State has moved in to help our former Head of State clear the allegations that have been labelled against him. Therefore, even as you try to obstruct the debates or raise points of order in Parliament, you should not show the Zambians that there is something you are trying to hide. You can only do that if, somehow, you have been asked to come and oppose even when things are straightforward. I was chairperson of elections and, now, I am a former member of that party. Unfortunately, I am hearing what has been said on the Floor of this House for the first time.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, these are issues which can be cleared and the people of Zambia ought to know about these things. It is more or less like in a village. For example, if you are accused of practising witchcraft and then your nephews want to take you to the witch finder, immediately you start getting upset before you even go, people will conclude that you know something. What is important is to co-operate and move on. Issues of procedure are important. In this House, we have the Standing Orders and laws. No one is saying that our former Head of State is guilty. I have not heard so, not even in the Motion that has been moved by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Sir, what has been said is that the joint investigating team would like to probe into this issue further. It cannot proceed with anything unless the person that is mentioned goes to exonerate himself. Those are rules of natural justice. If we can deny the rules of natural justice, how are we going to exonerate ourselves? Due to removal of immunity, I do not envy to become a Head of State. At the moment, I am a free person. Even if I am taken to court today, I know that the Constitution is there and it is very clear. The Constitution states that, until I am proved guilty, I am innocent. As such, every person is innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, let us understand the fact that there is no vengeance here. It is just a question of trying to clear the allegations. I am sure that some of my friends that have left this House are listening to the radio. Therefore, let us clear the perception by answering to these allegations. I am sure that if some of the allegations that have been laid against the former Head of State are not proved, he will be set free. That will be an occasion that will clear him for the rest of his life. It is important that, as Zambians, we try to face facts the way they are than to point fingers.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I listened very carefully to the mover of this Motion and I am trying hard to connect the money that has been mentioned to the State. There are allegations and suspicions that money could have come from the State. Those are suspicions. When the late President came to this House, he talked about the ZAMTROP Account and some mining enterprise. There were people who even told us where the money could be.

Mr Speaker, our stand here was a question of procedure. We said it, even when we were removing the immunity of the late President, Dr Chiluba. The then Hon. Mr Speaker said that we were bringing an issue that was unprecedented. That is the word that he used. I remember that there was, then, the late Sikatana who even said he was moving the Motion because he knew there was money somewhere.

Sir, unfortunately, we have not recovered that money. A task force was formed and it gobbled a lot of money. Now that the issue is on the removal of the immunity, my appeal is that, somehow, this country must heal. This country must find a way to heal. Someone must stop it. If we are going to work on precedents, it will not end.

Mr Speaker, I have heard that the major issue is on the items bought for campaign purposes. I have not yet been in the Government to know how money from the Government is used to buy things. However, having heard the mover, I am suspicious. Our friends did not have a lot of money, but, all of a sudden, the Government has a lot of money for buying vitenge for by-elections. I am left with no doubt other than to suspect that even these friends are beginning to steal money from the State.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: This is because this party has become rich overnight, after having gone into Government. This party has now shown us that, after all, the money that the former President, Mr Banda, used did not come from donations, as we were made to understand, but the State.

Mr Speaker, we are all concerned about the fact that we do not need money to be used on things that are not beneficial to the State. I think the First Republican President ensured that the money was used for development. There were accusations that were made about him being rich, but they came to nothing. On this particular one, I even feel that the people that are investigating might spend more money than the money alleged to have been stolen.

Sir, we even know that with the current system, there are instances when people who are called to the ACC refuse to be investigated. The President has said “If you want to investigate any hon. Minister, you should first get clearance from me. Without clearance, they will not be investigated.”

Mr Speaker, therefore, I want to appeal to the other hon. Members to realise that the precedent that we have been setting is that all of you will be searched when you are out of those positions. I know that some of you may claim to be clean, but it is not all of you who are.

Hon. Opposition Member: GBM.

Mr Muntanga: That is a fact. Do not think that when you are doing certain things, people do not know about them because they do. Nonetheless, nobody tells me that what you are doing is wrong. In cases when you tell one another lies that Hon. Given Lubinda gives me notes, those are cheap politics. Nobody gave me any notes.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kalomo Central Constituency, I do not think it is appropriate to drag in the hon. Member for Kabwata Constituency in that fashion. Be fair to Hon. Lubinda.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Be fair to him.

Mr Muntanga: I am heavy of heart over him. I feel upset because I was dragged into his predicament. I withdraw that because it is above what Parliament may know. However, there is a lot of deceit, lying and cheating.

Mr Speaker: I have made a ruling, hon. Member for Kalomo Central Constituency.

Mr Muntanga: All I am saying is that on the information given, I would have wished for the mover to tell us a little bit more on where the money could have come from. There are many who could have gone to Singapore. There was the ZAMTROP, during the time of the late President, Dr Chiluba, and we were told on how money was deposited into it and later siphoned.

Sir, I have been listening and I debate when I come here. The others want to speak while seated. This is a grave situation and we need the country to heal because I see a situation where there will be a demand for the removal of immunity of another President. When is this going to end? In any case, the word ‘stealing’ in our area and tribe is not there and it may happen to you. This is because for some of you, stealing is a way of life. It is not to me.

Mr Speaker, I want to appeal and insist that there should be a fast movement to the extent …

Mr Kabimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance. I know that the vocabulary of some of us may be limited. Is the debater in order to say that stealing is a way of life for some of us? Is that part of the language of civility in this House?

Mr Speaker: I think I have addressed this issue before. I have said that let us not make these insinuations liberally and gratuitously. This is because power, being what it is, is a pendulum. It swings. I think, we are all honourable and let all of us in here not prove otherwise. I think we should approach each other on that basis, especially in the context of debates. If we make generalisations of that sort, I think it is not fair to say the very least indeed.

Please, hon. Member for Kalomo Central Constituency, continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I thank you. I attended school as well. I am not a lawyer, but an agriculturalist. Therefore, to say that my vocabulary is limited is a bit off the mark. I was being advised not to steal and I was responding. In that vein, we are here to talk about money being stolen from the State. We are talking about people who are in authority abusing that authority. It is with that in mind that I say that we should approach it carefully because the country needs healing. If there was so much theft or some misdirection of funds, which I believe there was, I feel that, in future, this country will need a reconciliation so that we are told by the people who were in the Government where the money is. Even in the case of the many bicycles that people were taking for campaign purposes, there should be reconciliation. They should tell us. It does not help that, once one goes the other side, then, the people this side are the ones who are guilty.

Sir, I want to state that even as they remove the immunity of the former President, not everyone is clean. However, I may not be the best person to defend the former President because I was not in the Government. If anything, as a person in the Opposition, I would be happy to hear what more was not given to us. That is why I took the trouble to listen. I was very interested to hear the part on the money that we are looking for. That is why I said it fell short of telling me exactly where the money is coming from.

Mr Speaker, it is hoped that more investigations might come. However, if that will not happen, we want to ensure that Zambian money will not be used on things that will not yield results. We have come from a time when we removed the immunity of our former late President and I do not think that, at the end of it, there was anything that came out. Unfortunately, there was a demand of restoring immunity, but it was said that there was no such allowance. Perhaps, we should consider coming up with a process to give back a person’s immunity after he or she has been cleared so that they get on with their lives. We cannot remove immunity and not be able to give it back after a person has been cleared of all wrong.

Mr Speaker, allegations are allegations. Unfortunately, for a Head Of State, a precedent has been set. Others may be there making noise, but if you are head of state, you must wonder what you are doing. I would be very happy if we considered this Motion very carefully. Our President has been very tactful. He has not come to this House to lay out all the allegations. He has left it to the hon. Minister of Justice so that if he fails, in future, we only face the hon. Minister of Justice as one who may have told the House a lot of lies.

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I salute you for giving me the opportunity to raise a very important point of order.

Mr Speaker, the Motion on the Floor this evening borders on corruption. The African Parliamentarians Network against Corruption (APNAC), as an institution under Parliament, has the right to check on any citizen regardless of their status in society. I have just observed that the Chairperson of APNAC, who is supposed to listen to and follow the debate, has stormed out of the Chamber.

Are the Chairperson of APNAC, Hon. Mweetwa, and his vice in order to storm out of the Chamber when they are supposed to be listening to and following the proceedings of the debate? Where is the dignity of APNAC if the chairperson can behave in such a manner?

Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Quite candidly, I do not know why they are not here.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I simply do not know why they are not here and I cannot allow myself to speculate and rule on that basis.

The hon. Member for Kalomo Central may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I submit that the allegations we have heard this afternoon require more information so that we are convinced that there is, actually, a need to remove the immunity of the former President. I hope that this is not mere speculation. We are aware of many corruption charges that have been levelled against various hon. Members at the moment as alluded to by the hon. Member who raised a point of order. However, we are not able to investigate such hon. Members. Perhaps, when they leave office, we will follow them.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. {mospagebreak}

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to debate this very important Motion that is before us today. I have had to use the help of a television to see the face of the hon. Minister of Justice as he moved this Motion and I have arrived at a very safe, albeit unfortunate position. I do not trust him or his word.

Mr Speaker, this is important because what is under discussion is a very serious matter. There are three reasons I do not agree with the Motion that is on the Floor of the House today. Firstly, by now, we have a record of the PF, as party in Government. We cannot trust them because they have abused a number of already existing laws and a number of innocent citizens.

Mr Speaker, allowing the immunity of Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda to be removed, under the Executive of the PF Government, would be subjecting and allowing Mr Banda to be in the hands of a Government that has got a record of abuse of human rights.

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, this Government has blatantly abused the Public Order Act over the last few months that it has been in power. It has even abused the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), which is being directed to investigate people for owning cattle.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Sampa interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, it has even abused the powers of the President to appoint Ministers from among Members of Parliament. As we heard, earlier in the day, its members confessed and called it ‘poaching’. They are talking about abuse of human rights. It is the naked truth, as we heard and saw this morning. For instance, Hon. Nkombo is nursing a fractured arm that he sustained in a police …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mbabala, sit down for a moment, I need to provide some guidance.

You are free to debate how best you think you can represent the people of Mbabala. However, one of our fundamental rules is relevance. As much as you may want to buttress your submissions with examples, I would urge you to bear in mind the Motion before us. I think that it is important that you bear this particular Motion in mind and try to be as close to and focused on it as possible.

You may continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I was underlining the fact that it cannot be trusted with the former President, whose immunity …

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a point of order.

Mr Speaker, is the Speaker in order …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Speaker?

Mr Mwaliteta: I beg your pardon, Sir.

Is the hon. Member debating in order to say that appointing hon. Members from the Opposition to the Government is an abuse of office? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I think that we need to be very careful how we characterise some of these issues. I mentioned earlier today that we have different perceptions and interpretations of these actions. Others have argued very strongly about the latitude that is available under the Constitution, including some political arguments, and there are also conflicting positions on the subject. In all fairness, however, let us try to approach the subject, as much as it is emotive, in a very objective sense so that we do not make it a source of controversy. Once again, let us focus on the Motion before us.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I was underlining the fact that handing a former President, without immunity, to this Government would be as good as handing him to a Government that has already decided his fate. We have seen various abuses of individuals in this country and I am sure that it has been looking for an opportunity to do the same to the former President. This is one of our worries. It admitted this and has been speaking about it. It appears, therefore, that it wants to use us to remove his immunity so that it abuses him also, unless it can prove otherwise to us. It is important that this provision in the Constitution is not abused by those who are in the Government today whenever they have a vendetta to settle.

Mr Speaker, I would have been happier and actually supported this Motion on the Floor, if it talked about removing the immunity of all those who have held the Office of President, including the current one, in this country, so that we settle this matter once and for all. Whether they like it or not, now, we have a pattern and the movers of this Motion will have themselves to blame if the current President’s immunity is also brought before this House at some future date to be removed. It sounds very good today that we can talk about immunity of the former President alone, but we do not want this pattern to continue. As for me, I would have wanted this country to have a fresh start. We are worried and concerned with the level of abuse of individuals, institutions, offices and, sadly, even various provisions within the law by the current Government. So, if we allow them to use this opportunity to vent their anger or whatever they have to settle with Mr Rupiah Banda, it will be unfortunate. That is why, as a person and as a representative of the people of Mbabala Constituency, I am opposed to their Motion.

Secondly, Sir, whatever arguments they are advancing today, I think that it is also immoral for the PF Government, especially, to be the ones that bring the Motion proposing the removal of the immunity of Former President, Mr Rupiah Banda. It is immoral because their hands are contaminated.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Belemu: Among themselves, they have been accusing each other of corruption as to who is more corrupt than the other …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbabala, may you sit down.

Interruptions

Mr M. H. Malama: He has nothing to say.

Mr Speaker: Sir, I have said before, and not long ago, that we should treat each other with respect and avoid these generalisations. There is a specific Motion here. I think that I am saying this for the third or fourth time, addressing hon. Members over the same issue. There is a Motion. If you are for or against, state it in simple plain terms. Give your reasons without these insinuations.

You may continue.

Mr Belemu: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance. In very simple and straightforward terms, this Executive has, on a number of occasions, breached the Constitution. That is why I am saying that it is immoral for it to be the one to talk about removing the immunity of other people when its members also need their immunity to be removed.

Sir, I wish not to take too long on the Floor. This is a serious matter on which we need to reflect very seriously even as we make a decision.

In conclusion, the PF Government has demonstrated a total lack of fidelity, and I am using the word ‘fidelity’ to mean loyalty to this country. I think that the disregard of various institutions or provisions in the law in the past is enough reason for us to question the motive behind what it is proposing to do today.

I have made an undertaking to be very brief …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: Let the hon. Member conclude, please.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, it sounds alright today to them but let me summarise by saying that the die is cast and the time is ticking and their moment of truth will come very soon. Their time is coming. They sound excited today, but some of them, soon and very soon, indeed, will face the music of this same law that they are trying to use today against others.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Professor Luo): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor.

Sir, we have been told several times to reflect on this Motion. For some of us, I did not need to come here to start reflecting. My life in Zambia has taught me that Zambia has a lot of resources. There is no part of Zambia where I have not been. I have lived with villagers in the villages of Zambia, I have worked in the hospitals of Zambia, I have implemented Human Immuno-deficiency Virus/Acquired Immuno-deficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS) programmes and I have seen the suffering of the Zambian people. Over forty-eight years of Independence, for a country that has so much resource, we should not be suffering.

It is interesting, Mr Speaker, that those of us who represent the people of Zambia who gave us an opportunity to come here and speak on their behalf, can, actually, ask why we should investigate an allegation of huge sums of money that have ended up in people’s pockets, buildings and banks outside this country.

Sir, the hallmark of leadership is to have empathy, love and humility. If one can actually go into an oil deal and take money to Malaysia, Singapore and everywhere, if one can go from nothing and build huge investments in this country, from a position where you had absolutely nothing, I think we should be serious as leaders of this country.

Let me remind the hon. Members of Parliament that the day we were elected into office we had a pre-stamped expiry date and none of us should think that, because we are in the Opposition or Executive, that date will not come for us. What we are doing today is sending a warning to all of us, including those of us in the Executive, that when we hold these offices, we hold them in trust for the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Luo: We do not hold them for ourselves. When one is elected as a Member of Parliament or President of this country, he or she is elected as an individual, therefore, cannot bring his or her children in the governance of this country, …

Hon. Government Members: No!

Professor Luo: … siphone money that should help the people of Zambia and bank it in the children’s accounts.

Mr Speaker, I have been to places in this country where, in a family of ten or fourteen, a few of them eat on Monday, others eat on Tuesday and the rest on Wednesday. Then, those who ate on Monday restart the cycle on Thursday, yet we have a President who does not care; a President who takes away money that should be given to the people of Zambia in the rural areas so that they are able to eat three meals a day and we sit in this Parliament, those who eat three meals a day, and say this Motion is not good. What are we talking about? Are we not supposed to represent the people of Zambia? People are walking out of this Parliament to protect an individual and not protect the 13 million people of Zambia. I find it absurd.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Shame!

Professor Luo: Mr Speaker, unlike other presidents of this country, Mr Rupiah Banda was elected President when there was a serious economic credit crunch in the world. While other presidents were looking for ways of protecting their countries so that they could even find policies that would make it better for their people, our President found it fit to start siphoning money, taking up illegal deals and building the Mpundu Trust.

Mr Speaker, in my own constituency, I believe K3 billion was spent in order for me not to win Munali Constituency. I saw the mugs, the underwear which were all pre-branded. I think, as a country, we are sending the right signals that all of us who get into public offices must serve the people of Zambia. I, for one, was elected by the people of Munali Constituency to serve them. They did not elect me to go to my ministerial office, take money, get into deals and bank money all over the place. I think, that is not leadership and, this time, we should start galvanising ourselves in understanding what leadership is and in trying to protect the people who have given us the privileges that we are enjoying.

Mr Speaker, I support this Motion and I would like us to remind ourselves that we are here to offer a service. If the former President will be found guilty of these allegations, he must face the wrath. If he will not be found guilty, he then will be free on the streets of Zambia and the world. That is what it means, but it will also be reminding those of us in public office that we are not omnipotent and not above the law. Therefore, we should deliver what is in our offices in a transparent manner, truthfully and without thinking that that expiry date will not come. I, for one, must state that the day the President of the Republic of Zambia appointed me Minister, and the day the people of Munali Constituency elected me Member of Parliament, I took it with a pre-stamped expiry date. That date will come and I am reminded every morning, and I think all of us must be reminded everyday. I wished Mr Rupiah Banda had been reminded then, but it is too late now. He has allegations levelled against him and I think, we should support the Motion and make sure that we put these allegations to rest.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to contribute to this Motion. From the outset, let me take cognisance of the point of order raised by Hon. Chisala, and I am glad to notice that the Chairperson of the Zambian Chapter of the African Parliamentarians Network against Corruption (APNAC) has come back in the House.

Sir, as Vice-Chairperson for the global Organisation of Parliamentarians against Corruption and President at the continental level, I support this Motion wholeheartedly. I also want to say this is a big day for Zambia. It is a big day for the champions in the fight against corruption. It is a day when some of us have been vindicated. I remember standing opposite and debating these matters and being told, “This hon. Member wants to share poverty. That is the reason he does not want the Government to remove the Abuse of Office Clause from the Anti-Corruption Act.” I do remember being hospitalised because of those laws, unfortunately, after suspected food poisoning. This day is a big day and I would like to say to the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs that my dear Professor, do not regret that Former President, Mr Banda, was not reminded. He was forewarned in this House. When he was Vice-President as well as when he was President, he was forewarned that these laws would follow him. He was also forewarned when he called for the amendment of the Anti-Corruption Act. We said to him that the Government that would come would perform one major function, which was the re-introduction of the Abuse of Office Clause, and that those who would be found complicit would be caught up with. Indeed, the time has come. I have heard some colleagues say that these are allegations. Indeed, they are, and that is why the Government has decided to do that which is required for those allegations to be proved, and to give the accused the opportunity to vindicate themselves. That is what good governance is all about, to give people an opportunity to defend themselves from public ridicule. I do recall my colleagues in the UPND and me, on that side, raising questions about the unexplained enrichment of some people in the Government, particularly the former First Family of Mr Rupiah Banda. I do recall engaging in a long discussion with colleagues in the UPND over matters like this. I am glad that they are coming back to the House because they realise that what we spoke about, then, is today being followed through. We are doing, exactly, what we said we would do.

Mr Speaker, it is also important for us to realise that by lifting the immunity of the former President, we are also setting a precedent for ourselves and that is what we want. This is in answer to the question raised by my good friend, Hon. Muntanga, who asked where it would stop. It shall start stopping now because the current President is aware of the fact that this law is in the statute books. He has allowed his hon. Minister of Justice to come and remove the immunity of his predecessor. Naturally, he knows that if he misconducts himself, he, too, will have to face the same wrath. Is it not a mark of honesty for a person to say, I am clean and I intend to remain clean? Judge me by this standard. This is the reason why all those who are committed in the fight against corruption must celebrate today. As for me, I shall break my alcohol fast tonight.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is personal.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Gin and tonic.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: I shall go and enjoy my gin and tonic tonight.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, this is also a matter of reflection for us. We need to remind ourselves that if the immunity of the President can be lifted by us, what excludes us, as Members of Parliament from public scrutiny? I am hoping that this Act, in this Parliament today, shall encourage us and the citizens to also invoke the other provisions of our statutes to ensure that we, too, live above board. I do recall, several years ago, the organisation I am proud to lead, APNAC, coming to Parliament and proposing amendments to ensure that even those declarations we make are verifiable because as far as I am concerned, to date, those declarations are just worth the paper on which they are written. I said before, something that I would like to share today, that in many countries, those declarations could as well be a love letter, sealed in an envelope and deposited with the Chief Justice and nobody gets to understand them unless there is a particular person who has a particular interest in that particular person who made declarations. I am hoping that my friends in APNAC in Zambia shall go back to the Anti-Corruption Act and look for amendments. This brings me to the other issue that I listened to this morning. I was rather frustrated to hear somebody say that there is intellectual bankruptcy because the Government has not brought Bills. I reminded myself of how many amendments I made when I was in the Opposition. That is a mark of intellectualism from an hon. Opposition Member. You do not just wait for the Government to come with Bills and you pass them without any amendment and call yourself an intellectual. You call yourself an intellectual, hon. Opposition Member, if you are also able to propose amendments and move Bills.

This Motion shows the Government’s will to fight corruption. Therefore, this is an opportunity for my friend, Hon. Mweetwa, and other colleagues in the Opposition and APNAC to bring up even more efficacious laws in the next session of Parliament, to make sure that we bring the fight against corruption to higher heights in Zambia. As a matter of fact, as Hon Mweetwa has come to realise, Zambia is quite well respected in so far as the fight against corruption is concerned on the continent and globally.

I heard one of my colleagues asking where the connection is between the money that was being spent and the Treasury. The Anti-Corruption Act has provisions for fighting illicit enrichment. If a person has acquired wealth that they cannot explain its source, it is the duty of the Government to go out and ask. Therefore, the Government is asking very mildly and honestly the former President to explain to us where the more than US$11 million came from because we do not think that his emoluments, as President, could give him that kind of money, especially if the money is going to be spent on buying shoes, bulbs and underwear, like we heard earlier this evening.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Surely, if you are going to spend US$11 million on that, it means that you must have a limitless source of money. Therefore, is it not in the interest of society for him to be questioned? What about the Nigerian oil deal? Have we not been told that, actually, it was the Treasury that paid for that oil transaction, and yet the proceeds of that deal did not come back to the Treasury? The proceeds of that transaction went to offshore accounts. Is that not a good reason for us to demand answers? Those of us who are determined to fight corruption believe this is a very good starting point and ought to be supported by everybody.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I am cognisant of the fact that there are a few people who might have decided to oppose this Motion because they might have been beneficiaries, …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … directly or indirectly, but we have a moral duty, my dear colleagues, to the Zambian people to stand above board and tall and demand that those who meddle with public resources are brought to account. This is not only being done for purposes of history, but also for the future. On that score, I would like to agree entirely with the professor …

Hon. Government Members: Which professor?

Mr Lubinda: Professor Luo.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: I entirely agree with Professor Luo …

Mr Mulenga: Not Lungwangwa.

Mr Lubinda: … that we are setting this precedent for ourselves and it is up to us to make sure that, as we raise this bar, we also raise our moral uprightness. This does not mean that we shall not be suspected of being involved in corruption. As leaders, we will be suspected. There are a lot of people who are going out there and saying that we are abusing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Yes, but then we must show the people that we have put in place measures to make sure that we are given an opportunity to vindicate ourselves and we must be willing to vindicate ourselves. We must not shy away from vindicating ourselves. When our reputation is dented, we must be able to stand tall and say, “Try me. I might be a broken mirror but, at least, you can see my image in that mirror.” That is a mark of leadership.

I would like to appeal to all of us in the House that this matter is not just a matter for here in the House. This is a matter of great public interest and there shall be lots of debate out there. I would like to appeal to hon. Members of Parliament not to shy away from defending this position that we have taken because we have done so conscious of the fact that it is in the best interest of society and we are not in any way being personal or persecuting anybody. It is the prayer of a lot of us that when the time comes, former President Rupiah Banda will be able to go and explain to the Zambian people how the oil deal was entered into, concluded and how money went into offshore accounts. It is our hope that he will also go and explain how those charities came about, enriched him and made it possible for him to have personalised bulbs when they light. I wonder what was being written in the light bulbs. Maybe, it was ‘Vote RB’. This will enable others, too, to learn how to be so creative and innovative in attracting so much charity if, indeed, it was clean. If it was not clean then, of course, the law ought to take its course.

Mr Speaker, let me end where I started and that is on APNAC. I am hoping that my colleagues in APNAC will also take time to convene a meeting where, as APNAC, they will look at this issue of immunity and sponsor a few radio and television programmes to go and explain to the masses that APNAC stands tall on matters to do with abuse of office, irrespective of the political divide because this is not a matter of politics. This is a matter of prudent utilisation of entrusted power. For a person to have been entrusted with power for three years and, in those three years, be able to accumulate more than US$11 million to spend in a campaign is miraculous, to say the least. I am sure that all of us would like to learn from that story.

Sir, I support the Motion and I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, firstly, let me thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who have rendered support to this Motion this afternoon. Let me also thank even those who debated against the Motion or veered off the compass of the Motion and decided to start debating individuals on your right.

Mr Speaker, in concluding, let me just say that the issue of removal of immunity of a former President is not peculiar to the Zambian jurisdiction. Those of us who recall the case of the former President of Chile, President Pinochet, when he was arrested in London, will recall that there was an extensive debate over the issue of how and when you remove the immunity of a former president. President Pinochet had arm-twisted the Senate of Chile to confer upon himself life immunity for the period that he was in office. When he was arrested in London, the issue of his immunity came up before the House of Lords. In summary, that precedent, which was within English Law, would be of great interest to this jurisdiction. The arguments by Former President Pinochet’s lawyers were that he enjoyed lifetime immunity against prosecution. The human rights lawyers that defended or represented the people that had claimed that their kith and kin had been kidnapped, abused and killed under the Former President, Pinochet’s regime advanced this argument. The argument, in summation, was as follows:

“They agreed that yes Former President Pinochet enjoyed immunity under the Chilean law. That was not in dispute. However, the lawyers argued and said no President is ever elected by his people to kidnap and kill citizens of his country or in this particular case to steal from citizens of his country.”

If Former President Banda had gone round the country campaigning for people to vote for him because he wanted to come and steal from them, they would have not voted for him in 2008. That just means that the people of Zambia voted for him in good faith, believing that he would be a good President and that he would look after the affairs and Treasury of this country.

Therefore, we bring this Motion without any iota of bad faith against any individual and in particular, the former President, Mr Banda. We bring this Motion in the interest of the country and not as an afterthought. Like my colleague, the previous speaker, said, when we were in the Opposition, we made pronouncements, from time to time, that there was rampant corruption under the MMD. I was one of the people that wrote letters to the Former President, Mr Banda, about issues of corruption and we did tell the people of Zambia that if and when we got into power, we would investigate these rampant cases of corruption because they were against the interest of our people. The people of Zambia believed us in that undertaking and voted us into office and we owe them a duty to ensure that we follow up on our undertaking to them to make sure that this culture of impunity for those of us that are in public office does not repeat itself. As the motto says, “Never, again, shall the people of Zambia fold their arms as they see their Treasury being abused and ransacked by those that are in public offices.”

I want to state, Mr Speaker, that the JGIT has concluded its investigations to prosecute Former President Banda. So, the Motion concerning the lifting of his immunity in respect of Former President Banda, which is before this august House, is not intended to investigate him as far as the investigating team is concerned. It has concluded the investigations and wishes to prosecute him on the grounds that are before this House.

The reason Article 43 of the Constitution exists, Mr Speaker, to delve into the question of whether or not the proceedings will be against the interest of the State, is to, simply, secure the State and ensure that nothing that would jeopardise the security of the State would be a subject of legal proceedings. Certainly, it was never intended to cover up for theft of public funds, abuse of public office and I think that was not the intention of the framers of the Constitution and that particular article.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: As this is a constitutional resolution, we have to record the number of hon. Members agreeing or disagreeing with this Motion by voting. The vote will be done electronically.

Question that the removal of legal immunity in respect of the former President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, would not be against the interests of the State put and the House voted.

Ayes– (80)

Mrs E. M. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr C. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Col Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Dr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chitotela
Mr Chungu
Mr Evans
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kabimba, SC.
Mr Kampyongo
Brig-Gen Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema
Col Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Mr E. C. Lungu
Dr Lungu
Col Lungu
Professor Luo
Mr Mwimba H. Malama
Mrs Masebo
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukata
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Mr B. Mutale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ngoma
Mr Njeulu
Mr Phiri
Dr Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simuusa
Mr Taima
Mr Taundi
Mr Tembo
Professor Willombe
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (3)

Mr Mbewe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma

Abstentions – (4)

Mr Antonio
Mr Banda
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Sianga

Present but did not vote– (1)

Mr Lufuma

Question accordingly agreed to.

__________________

BILLS

REPORT STAGE

The National Health Research Bill, 2013

The Medicines and Allied Substances Bill, 2013

Report adopted

Third Readings today.

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Bank of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2013

The Millennium Challenge Compact Bill, 2013

_________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

________

The House adjourned accordingly at 1904 hours on Friday, 15th March, 2013, sine die.

__________